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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#691

Post by wayneftw »

ballenf wrote: post #616
015a wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming…

As a developer I just don’t like the precedent that if I’m too successful at creating a great product that I therefore lose control over the very qualities of my product that made it successful.

Remember when you had to rent a telephone from Ma Bell in order to use the phone service that you paid for? Yeah neither do I because the government broke that shit up like they were supposed to.

I bought this iPhone and I can't even run my own programs on it without asking for Apple's permission. This needs to be outlawed yesterday.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#692

Post by stubish »

tomc1985 wrote: post #488
the_af wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are alternative stores for the same game on the desktop. A trivial example is that some games can be installed directly by downloading a file from the developer, or via Humble Bundle, GOG or Steam. So this business model is possible. And it's the friendliest to end users, too.

When things work that way, then great! But a number of high-profile publishers (Rockstar, Ubisoft, EA) force you to use their app platform even if you purchased the game on Steam. I bought Far Cry 5 on Steam, and running it first launches Ubisoft's launcher, which usually needs to update (why????), then I can launch the game. GTA Online freebie in Epic Store, first has to start Rockstar Social Club (which also usuall…

The situation degraded so far that it actually gives me a benefit. Ubisoft and EA now offer cheap subscriptions, so I never actually have to buy a game from them again; I just pay a low price once a year for a month or two of access. Why wait for Assassins' Creed: Valhalla at 75% off when I can play it now for less (and it is still cheaper in the rare cases I want to play something a second time). EA even seem to be getting in bed with Microsoft, with the XBox for PC premium subscription thing gaining EA access, so I expect that platform may actually die sooner rather than later and get folded into XBox (which seems to use the built in Windows store distribution). I really can't fathom how the divisions at the big companies running these stores can justify their existence, where trying to maximize their share of the market appears to just be driving it into the ground.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#693

Post by zepto »

jedberg wrote: post #688
FlownScepter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick Google says iOS' market share is 14%. I don't understand this position at all. Google is by far and away the market leader. Their ecosystem is free and you can do just about anything in it. Their Play store's standards are utterly bare bones. The devices are cheaper. If what you want is an open source (ish) platform that you can hack on, modify, install software yourself, whatever, all of that is available to…

You're looking at this backwards. While their market share might be 14%, they control 66% of app revenue. As a developer I'm restricted from accessing that 66%. THAT is why I want an open platform. Access to those consumers. That has nothing to do with my choice of platform. It has to do with access to a large market which I am being restricted from.

> It has to do with access to a large market which I am being restricted from.

Wait - what App do you want to sell that won’t allow?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#695

Post by elefanten »

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677
thereddaikon wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you called it sideloading just shows how successful Apple has been in warping people's perception of it over the years. Installing the software you want on your compute device isn't sideloading. Its just installing software. Apple is aberration here not all of the users who just expect to actually own the products they buy.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..."

If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-guarded, highly-moderated mobile OS to choose from. Apple has tremendous resources and expends tremendous resources, under pressure of tremendous incentives, to moderate it well. Do you think Third-party app stores will be moderated better or worse on average? Not just with respect to content decisions, but privacy, security and the works.

There is a very reasonable case that having a solidly-guarded and moderated mobile OS as an option in the market is good for consumers. It may boggle the tech-savvy mind, but another way of reading the incredibly successful 10 year history of this horribly locked-down, oppressive OS is that the market has spoken. And it's happy.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#696

Post by adambyrtek »

suifbwish wrote: post #669
fouric wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. So say you. I say that consumers have the right to run whatever software they want on the hardware that they have purchased. Apple can create whatever software platform they want, but it seems pretty bad that they don't allow you to use whatever software platform you want on the hardware that you paid them for .

There is nothing stopping you from rooting your iPhone and installing android on it. Problem solved. Now you can add all the spammerware you like.

Classic false dichotomy. Do you really think that any software not blessed by Apple must be necessarily malware?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#697

Post by kaba0 »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #326
justapassenger wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic of course doesn’t have customers back - it’s most likely more scummy than Apple. Only thing that markets discovered so far, that has somehow customers back is free market and competition (and it’s far from being perfect of course), and they happen to push for it. It’s just a case where customer interested happened to be aligned, even tho companies fight it for profit reasons (as with privacy and Apple - good for…

I totally understand that but from my POV, I don't see Apple losing the App Store's position as a positive for consumers. Let's compare Android's eco-system to iOS's. Android's app ecosystem is terrible IMO, piracy - viruses - cloned apps - and general very low quality apps. I'm a mobile developer (both iOS and Android) and I use both in my daily live. I know some people prefer Android but MANY don't. To me it's VERY…

But as other’s said, a disabled by default way to sideload apps on the very hardware I paid for should be a given freedom of mine. They should not be able to sell a “way of life”, but only a hardware software platform layer on top of which I as a user should be able to decide for myself what I want.

(Also, I find the App Store’s recommendation engine pretty terrible unfortunately, discovery is pretty much impossible)

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#698

Post by zepto »

fouric wrote: post #508
nickysielicki wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about the outcome, it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome. Nobody has to buy an iPhone, iPad, or MacBook. Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. Their success in mobile computing is arguably a direct result of their closed ecosystem.

> Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. So say you. I say that consumers have the right to run whatever software they want on the hardware that they have purchased. Apple can create whatever software platform they want, but it seems pretty bad that they don't allow you to use whatever software platform you want on the hardware that you paid them for .

Allowing Bootcamp for iOS would solve this.

I am strongly in favor of that. The whole App Store thing is just about some middlemen wanting a cut and has nothing to do with software freedom.

On the other hand bootcamp for iOS - so you could install android, or better yet, a genuinely free OS, would solve the software freedom problem and allow old iOS devices to be repurposed after Apple stops supporting them.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#699

Post by kaba0 »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #385
justapassenger wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple would open up to other apps stores I’d most likely stay with theirs, because I also like value they provide. But that doesn’t mean I agree with them not allowing other people to make a choice. For me 30% for purchases and having heavily curated store is ok, but others it’s not, and they should be allowed to choose. If Apple store is truly superior, they won’t have problems staying ahead of competition.

They do have a choice, use Android if they don't like it. All the major apps are available on Android. Good hardware is available. There is nothing besides time and money to stop them. I don't understand how anyone can ask for choice when it already exists.

There is no choice for good hardware, non-walled garden and no tracking. Choose two. If there is, please show me and I will be the first in line.

Android forks would be great but unfortunately phones come with plenty of firmware that gets wiped on flashing a new OS. And if the question is a possibly non-working camera than I personally will remain in the walled garden, but not happily.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#700

Post by kaba0 »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #567
yladiz wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get why it's great for developers, but why for consumers? You'll almost have a situation exactly like the one that exists on Windows for gaming, where you have to install any number of stores to get the games that _only_ exist in those stores. You may think that it will give you or other consumers more choice, but it's a choice only for developers and it's at the expense of consumers.

Exactly, I'm a developer (mobile apps and games hopefully - if I can ever actually finish it) and I get why I might want multiple options but as a consumer? The REASON I choice Apple is the superior App Store. No where else can I find the average quality of software that is on the App Store, the freedom form viruses, and general quality of app.

The App Store will not stop existing if sideloading is made possible
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