Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

691–700 of 1001 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#691

Post by collyw »

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I would imagine that in most cases there is the opportunity to move from one group to the other.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#692

Post by Shacklz »

JacKTrocinskI wrote: post #666
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

> How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism?

From welfare state: By giving it unconditionally.

From socialism/communism: You're still allowed to own "means of production", and you're also still allowed to try to maximize profits etc. as a company. Private property, especially owning a business privately, is still a thing.

> What incentive would there be for people to work?

You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work.

And this is in my opinion the beauty of UBI. Doing a crappy job until the end of my life for a crappy salary that doesn't get me anywhere? No way. Doing a crappy job for a while until I've saved up enough cash to afford something I want? Why not. It incentivizes to make crappy jobs that nobody wants (unless they must) more attractive; accelerating their automatization (see e.g. the garbage truck examples in this thread - people running behind it vs. having an automated crane to do it); giving power to those who currently have no option than to work whatever they're given, no matter how much they dislike it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#693

Post by vanderZwan »

bmitc wrote: post #652
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

Except that we do have approximate data that can give us hints at whether this works out or not: the differences in unemployment safety nets between countries, as well as how strong their minimum wage laws are (and other appropriate laws that are supposed to protect employees).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#694

Post by alangibson »

UBI reminds me of Bagehot's statement on the English Constitution being split into two parts: the dignified and the efficient.

It's also useful to think about the economy as being divided in two halves: one that keeps people alive by making available basics like food and shelter (the efficient), and the other that is where we pursue our hopes and dreams (the dignified). UBI plays in the first half by making sure people can at least subsist. They may then choose to what degree they participate in the second half.

If you just want a few extra creature comforts, then you can do gig work when you need it. If you dream big, then start prepping to interview at a FAANG while UBI pays the rent on a modest apartment.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#695

Post by tudorhn »

The big risk of UBI is that it can lead to a rise in populism. This is very obvious in the former communist countries of Eastern Europe. A large part of the population is fully dependent on the state for pensions or some sort of basic income and lots are even working as civil servants. This sizeable section of the population is very susceptible to populist promises or scares. “If X wins, they will cut your pension” type of rhetoric. This has very perverse and non-intuitive consequences. People vote for obviously corrupt leaders in the hope that they would share the spoils with them, and to some extent they do. If a western country adopts UBI, I can easily see a similar path. Maybe not immediately but over 20-30 years as more and more people become dependent and know nothing else. This is a very slippery slope.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#696

Post by ALittleLight »

bmitc wrote: post #652
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

How are you more at the mercy of the rich if you have more money?

Consider a very smart and very poor person. You walk up to him and say "Hey, want 1200 dollars?" Do you think he'll say "No, that would increase my dependence on the rich." I don't.

I just can't conceive of the mechanism. Slum lords try to separate the poor from their money now. Pretty much everyone does. The only difference is, the poor would have more money.

There's probably going to be predation on the mentally ill or incompetent. That could be solved by helping those people, limiting what they can buy, or harshly punishing the exploiters - some combination. But even if they were cheated out of their UBI I don't see how they'd be worse off (without assuming people wouldn't help the mentally incompetent if they had UBI which seems dubious to me).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#697

Post by imtringued »

phantom0308 wrote: post #627
stiray wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I like the idea of UBI idealistically, I am worried about potential inflation. Once there is more money in the system (that before the UBI just wasnt there) the prices of basic things might rise and at the end the money you get from UBI will be a "new zero". I am not saying that this will happen but I think this is serious concern.

The entire world is stuck in a liquidity trap and we have negative real interest rates. No advanced economy has had north of the 2% target for a meaningful amount of time prior to the pandemic. Inflation is something to watch out for. IMO, deflation is the bigger concern. Source: former deficit hawk convinced hyper-inflation was just around the corner for half a decade.

I'm the opposite. I've thought about deflation for half a decade. Interestingly the conclusion is always the same but with a different coat of paint. The central bank stimulus doesn't reach the real economy and by "real economy" I mean the parts of the economy that are being used to measure inflation.

Inflation happens when lots of money chases too few goods or workers. We see it in housing, stocks, perhaps also education and healthcare. The money does go somewhere but not to where it is most effective. Why is there no inflation in salaries? Because of underemployment. Companies can always fill their open positions and pick among the cheapest applicants. Why is there no inflation in other consumer goods? Production is happening primarily in developing countries with an even larger surplus of labor.

The answer is probably a little boring and obvious. Give money to people that will spend it immediately, rather than to people who will try to convert it into inflation proof assets. The coronavirus related economic stimulus packages are pretty much the only policies that even attempt to do this.

If they overdo it can easily result in hyperinflation but I think inflation is overdue.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#699

Post by xxxxxxxx »

aembleton wrote: post #684

How about providing the basics for life such as - Government provided housing - Government provided meals. This can be in the form of communal kitchens much like British Kitchens [1]. This can then be used to ensure that everyone gets fed, that it is nutritionally sound and that it uses home grown produce. That way, it in effect subsidises farmers which means we can remove farm subsidies at the same time. - Free publ…

I can't tell from your tone if you are joking or not. I hope you are? Your utopia sounds a lot like Brave New World to me.
Post reply on HN