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Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

reuters.com

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Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#691

Post by rob-olmos »

nelgaard wrote: post #647
VvR-Ox wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Yes, they have to. At least in the US any company has to cooperate with the law enforcement as you might know. The only choice to do business in the US or based on US governed soil is to comply with them. 2. Apple at least put some effort into this matter because otherwise there would not be so much media attention to breaking into iPhones. To get data from android on the other hand seems to be no problem at all.…

on 1.: Are there actually US laws that could prevent Apple from offering end-to-end encryption for backups to their user? That is something very different from cooperating with a specific investigation. Why did Apple not fight this in court? Could Apple keep the backups outside the EU, like Microsoft did for email in the Dublin case?

One of my wild guesses could be Apple wants to mine the data. Blaming it on having to comply with court orders could be a useful limited hangout.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#692

Post by Silhouette »

scarface74 wrote: post #638
Silhouette wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you forgotten that the entire point of this discussion was that iCloud is not properly encrypted, which is why it is such a problem that local transfer of all data is so difficult?

So now we are going back to needing some type of app to backup and encrypt since there are no “standard protocols” that can do encrypted backups and restores.....

If everything is being transferred off your device locally, why can't you use whatever backup arrangements you normally make for your other data?

We already have a good, properly secured backup system that we use for all our workstations and servers. We just want to be able to export data from any mobile devices we use and manage that data using the same policies and tools. In most cases, that is straightforward. The one big exception is the iOS devices.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#693

Post by mistersquid »

echelon wrote: post #584
mistersquid wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously…

> Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement [...] No, they do not. If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. Don't apologize for them making this user-hostile choice. We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. We can't afford to keep ceding ground on privacy. We have to eng…

>I'll be very mad at the rest of you lot that choose convenience over privacy, rights, and autonomy if 2030 sees our freedoms and liberties eroded further.

> Our collective choices matter, and that's why I'm calling you out.

I'll be direct and say that your passion inspires me and your articulation of the issue is very close to my deep feelings about privacy, encryption, and law enforcement. Of course, human brains are complicated pieces of kit and the rational part of me tempers "my deep feelings" with the context I elaborated in the parent comment.

Still, I wanted to take the time to thank you for expressing this in precisely the way you did. Thank you.

I also want to take a moment to recommend an article by John Gruber (Daring Fireball), "Regarding Reuters’s Report That Apple Dropped Plan for Encrypting iCloud Backups" which critiques the basis of the Reuter's article. [0] (I'd have made it a post except for being a bit overactive this morning with submitting Daring Fireball-sourced links to HN.)

You might feel less disillusioned considering Gruber's points, many of which are excellent.

[0] https://daringfireball.net/2020/01/reuters_report_on_apple_d...

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#694

Post by StillBored »

Marsymars wrote: post #495
StillBored wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why paying developers is a problem to bootstrap the ecosystem. Although, if they were paying for temple run (as the image might suggest) that seems odd. Mostly because presumably they should be targeting the apps everyone uses that don't have good replacements (aka netflix/prime streaming/etc). I would guess that they aren't the only ones. Do you think LG/Sony/Samsung/roku/apple tv/firestic/etc all got t…

> But MS was a special case, it seems to me that every time I looked at CE/Mobile/etc they were tossing existing app compatibility aside for the latest and greatest toolkit that went with some not particularly good set of phones. Their (forward) app compatibility was actually very good. I wrote a WP7 Silverlight app in 2011 that still works on the last release of Windows Mobile 10.

But that was basically quite late in the game, microsoft had been making a phone OS's for ~ a decade at that point. In 2011 it seemed like MS was already putting it on life support.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#695

Post by scarface74 »

Silhouette wrote: post #692
scarface74 wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now we are going back to needing some type of app to backup and encrypt since there are no “standard protocols” that can do encrypted backups and restores.....

If everything is being transferred off your device locally, why can't you use whatever backup arrangements you normally make for your other data? We already have a good, properly secured backup system that we use for all our workstations and servers. We just want to be able to export data from any mobile devices we use and manage that data using the same policies and tools. In most cases, that is straightforward. The…

“We already have a good, properly secured backup system that we use for all our workstations and servers”

And this is the same myopic geek viewpoint that came out with the iPod “Less space than the Nomad. No wireless lame.”

Do you actually believe that most people have a good backup solution at all? Is that really what you are suggesting for a general backup solution?

That’s just like when DropBox was introduced and people on HN came up with a convoluted Rube Goldberg solution that they could do themselves.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#696

Post by peterloron »

kortex wrote: post #602
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to legislate backdoors now. They tried and failed with Clipper. The current status quo is good enough for the spooks. Zero regulation of data privacy allows third-party aggregators to do the desired collection activities without explicit government involvement. When they want something they know who to ask, warrant optional. Enacting laws that expose what the government is doing would risk a public bac…

Three things in the world are infinite: - the universe - human stupidity - spooks' thirst for more data, backdoors, and monitoring ability

The universe is, as far as we have been able to determine, not infinite. The other two, yes, seem to be limitless.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#697

Post by peterloron »

xbmcuser wrote: post #617
justapassenger wrote: post #191

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no…

China allows them to sell Apple devices in China that alone makes me doubt the privacy of apple devices.

In China, all your data belongs to China. That is simply the way it is if you choose to do business there. You might point fingers at Apple and other companies who operate there, but China is a huge market. The Chinese people know their data is all backdoored, so there is no coverup or obfuscation.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#698

Post by everdrive »

kmbriedis wrote: post #683
commoner wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user As you can see from this discussion, there are a lot of technically knowledgeable people who did not find this "plainly obvious". It's disingenuous to blame users for Apple's misleading marketing.

One could argue if those can be called "technically knowledgeable"

No one can be knowledgeable about all topics, which is precisely why trust is so important.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#699

Post by peterloron »

natch wrote: post #235
neya wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone I simply don't understand why people would blindly believe marketing material from a for-profit corporation. It's a device running closed source software. There is no way to prove this claim. If anything, Apple has been caught in the past sending very very personal sensitive information [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-con...

Not blindly. Outside of marketing material there have been more meaningful signs and signals indicating that they did care. Including principled people working there, threatening to quit if the FBI got its way on San Bernardino, etc. This is new.

I work at Apple in engineering. User data privacy is a VERY big deal and something which is taken really seriously. It is not just marketing lip service.

Is Apple perfect? No, of course not. Are there things I think they should do better? Yes. E2E encryption with user keys stored in Secure Enclave, etc, etc. However, for Joe Consumer, I think they make the most secure, easiest to use platform.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#700

Post by ex3ndr »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #609
tomc1985 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I used android there as no option for disabling location tracking as they had removed it a few major versions prior. Instead you had "enabled" and "kind of disabled, but not really" options

I have used Android devices since 1.0. They have all had the ability to disable location history and the ability to disable Google Location Services (under various names). Apple doesn't even give you the option of not sending GPS locations to Apple. If any app requests your location, Apple gets it too. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056

That’s just not enough for disabling it on Android. I am working with androids even before 1.0, but does this really matter?
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