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8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

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Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#691

What people (seemingly) fail to realise is that neither Cloudflare is the Internet nor Voxility is a public infrastructure. They are private enterprises which are free to act in however they want with regards to the service they provide as laid out in their contract. That is the danger of centralisation; when they remove their service, it feels as if your rights has been violated because (a) you have been so used to…

>They are private enterprises which are free to act in however they want with regards to the service they provide as laid out in their contract.

Are they also free to only do business with people of certain races? The "private enterprises" line lost its punch about 50 years ago.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#692

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

My main issue with this line of reasoning is that it feels largely emotion driven. Even if communities with zero moderation do offer more likely spaces for extremist thoughts to develop and become action, I can't claim I've seen a broad academic consensus that sacrificing current free speech rights would actually solve or otherwise impact the problem in a meaningful way. I don't think communities that turn a blind ey…

> but if we take a step back this doesn't seem wholly different from blaming violent video games for glamorizing gun violence or blaming rap music for gang culture.

One big difference is that generally video games don't claim that mexicans are trying in invade USA right now. They are violent, but they are not trying to convince you to take gun and kill real people. Unlike members of community we talk about right now, that have that political Goal and executed that political goal.

It is difference between Der Stürmer and Sherlock Holmes crime story. One of them claims to contain real stories. One of them is going out of its way to convince people to be violent while the other is going out of its way to be fun.

> There's a reason that most people, including racists/bigots/etc. don't go on shooting sprees or run people over with cars.

Yes. Most racists/bigots believe in own superiority, but do not actually believe Latinos are mortal threat that requires immediate action. You may believe they are dumber without perceiving them as acute threat or being so afraid.

That has to do with them not living exclusively in extremist bubble, but instead consuming different media.

And even those who do are in fact afraid to throw away their lives completely just like that.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#693

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

It's hard to discuss ideas that rely on words such as 'reprehensible'.

Freedom of speech is not some ideal in isolation. We don't have freedom of food and shelter. Without food and shelter, you die. If receiving food and shelter requires you to censor your speech, you don't have freedom of speech.

Almost nobody has freedom of speech, and it's not at all clear why anyone'd want it anyway. I honestly am not interested in most things people say - I want the freedom to be away from people's speech, if anything.

Freedom of speech seems to be some ideological distraction in American society - when in reality everyone's interested in freedom of food, shelter and being away from most other people's ability to influence their lives.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the truth has a liberal bias? What is the argument you are making against the seemingly neutral argument that defends tolerance? Why is the right at odds with tolerance?

What do people mean when they say, "truth has a liberal bias"? I don't understand this. Edit: My intent is not to be facetious. I don't understand what this phrase means.

That typically people who identify as conservative often take positions that are at odds with things that should be accepted as objective fact.

Saying "the Earth is getting warmer on average every year" should not be a political statement. But here we are, where you have one group of people who have a vested interest in denying that fact. To profess the fact that our planet is warming and that it is an issue is to implicitly identify yourself as a "liberal".

Black people are disproportionately punished by the legal system for the exact same crimes committed by people of other skin colors. There's actual data showing this. But to bring this up gets you labeled as a "liberal".

To remark that police treat white people who are known to be criminals better than black people who aren't even engaged in suspicious behavior is easily documented. Mention this and you will be called a liberal.

And denying this does no favors to liberals or conservatives. Because even the batshit insane liberals get to trout out that line about "truth having a liberal bias". Because, for the most part, it's not wrong. But conservatives get to mock the statement by using it against the most radical of ideas that are generally seen as "liberal".

But what are we gonna do? If hard facts and reliable information could actually change minds, we wouldn't have Trump as President. You wouldn't have his legions of followers denying that he's doing the very things he is doing. I don't care if you're Republican or Democrat, Trump is not only unfit for the office, he's a criminal. The Republican party should be ashamed that he's representing them in the Executive branch.

But they're not.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm completely fine with that until we have literally any logical or scientific reasons to oppose tolerance.

So if science and logic one day makes a good case for you to be intolerant you will then leave the tolerant side and become intolerant? That, if anything, is the nature of ideological possession. What a weird view to hold. Besides, science and reason can tell you very little about morality as tolerance is a moral concept not a scientific one. In fact, science can make no moral claims as those by nature are value clai…

> So if science and logic one day makes a good case for you to be intolerant you will then leave the tolerant side and become intolerant?

Yes. And since there is no reason or logic behind intolerance, I'm not seeing that as a risky bet of any sort.

And you're right, I don't have consideration for this topic because there is no topic as far as I'm concerned. I used to be on the right, and I used to hold all kinds of cognitive dissonances in my head at once to explain the belief system therein. And yes, it made total sense to me at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight and a lot of experience in life, I can say with complete confidence that I was 100% full of shit, indoctrinated into a moral system that has no basis in any kind of rational thought, that is largely based on fear and maintaining a status quo under which I benefitted greatly.

There is no reason behind intolerance. There is bigotry, fear, oftentimes disgust, and occasionally just good old fashioned hate. But there is no reason, no logic, and certainly no science.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#697

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

It's hardly "freedom of speech" when it's speech deliberately insinuated with propaganda meant to edify the impressionably ignorant towards ideologies which facilitate their propagators' greater authoritarian hold over the dominant discourse and, as such, over individual sovereignty and human autonomy--as is illuminated in these reports by Data and Society:

1. https://datasociety.net/output/media-manipulation-and-disinf... 2. https://datasociety.net/output/alternative-influence/

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#698
post #677

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

"Unchecked extremism compounded by more unchecked extremism inevitably leads to scenarios like the ones we’re witnessing more and more often" exactly this. When you have a group of people that are on the extreme of society (think that's the polite way of phrasing that and covers all groups on the edge) and isolate them; Then you end up with them being contained in an echo bubble that amplifies their extremes and incr…

They aren't being kept in check. 8chan was reportedly not well moderated.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#699
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really that well informed of 8chan, but bringing it down, while practical, doesn't seem like the ideal solution. Isn't it just like covering your eyes and pretending the problem isn't there? The problem doesn't sound like it's 8chan, but rather these people and their ideologies. If 8chan was brought down, they'll just find another hub to congregate, but now we don't know where to reach them to talk. I thought…

The whole point of bringing 8chan down is to make it harder for them to congregate and fracture their community. It also makes it harder for new people to be indoctrinated. Reddit found that banning hate subreddits reduced the overall usage of hate speech on the website. Even though the most dedicated users probably moved to voat, now some clueless kid who just wants to see look at memes is much less likely to just s…

If you ban specific people from using your website, why would they use it?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

I think it can be simple. Intolerance is a set of beliefs or behaviors that exclude. Cake baker would be in the wrong, because he excludes. It doesn't matter how many people hold an intolerant belief for that belief to be intolerant.

Are you intolerant if you won't let me enter your house? You let your friend enter, thus you exclude me.

Something even what seems simple, isn't so simple.

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