Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is only true if the process he criticized is actually real.
What reasoning does Damore have to lie?
You say lie. I say "be uninformed".
Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
691–700 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#692Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…
>Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). The brute problem is that it's too long to be addressed in a re…
That's not the way to do it. The right way to do it is to pick one statement (the weakest one) from his argument and refute that one solidly. Then repeat the process with the next weakest, the second next weakest and so on. You only have to do that about four or five times before you have established that the author is full of shit.
That's the standard method you use for refuting arguments presented in essay form.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#693Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please keep ideological talking points off HN. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't comment until you do.
The onus is on you to disprove them, they made no irrational claims. If you have some problem with any of their concepts, say so. Your attack on whether his comment is 'thoughtful' or not is weak.
If you could point out to us here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism where it says that all so-called or self-described third wave feminists see men as second class citizens that would be super helpful in this debate.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#694Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. I'm a huge proponent of the principle of charity, but I found it impossible to apply to the Google Memo. Not because I'm deeply mired in political correctness (I have a range of views peo…
> Damore points to studies showing that, e.g. women are more agreeable and more people-oriented. From that, he concludes women on average are less likely to prefer programming. That's Diekman 2010: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631322 "Although women have nearly attained equality with men in several formerly male-dominated fields, they remain underrepresented in the fields of science, technology, engineering,…
I found that study here: https://sc.lib.miamioh.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.MIA/6026/di...
"Participants were 333 introductory psychology students (193 women) who participated for partial course credit, and 27 paid participants (14 women) from STEM classes. The majority (86.94%) were of European American descent. The median age was 19 years, ranging from 18 to 43. "
"For each of the core careers, participants rated how much the career fulfills agentic goals (“power, achievement, and seeking new experiences or excitement”) and communal goals (“intimacy, affiliation, and altruism”; definitions from Pohlmann, 2001). Participants rated goals according to “how important each of the following kinds of goals is to you personally."
I really found this study not very compelling as jumping from point A to conclusion B. It seems more than they've proved that women from the small subset in this study prefer more "communal goals" and the STEM careers are not perceived that way.
I can say as a women in STEM, I sort of choose tech on a whim. I came to see coding as a tool for many of the creative aspirations I had. If anything, I think some of the STEM career paths are poorly understood and marketed to women. Though I probably would have answered my questions about my career decisions in one way when I started college, it would have been different by the end of it. And after understanding what to expect out of a career, being years into my career, I would answer what's important to me in yet another way. So I really question this study.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#695Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…
> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…
>This burden has fallen on women since they were teenagers. To expect them to do it yet again, to have to defend themselves at work this time, is ridiculous.
Why does research regarding this and the burden has to fall on women? If research is solid why does it matter if it was generated by a specific gender.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#696Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…
There is some irony there, because a common tactic for derailing complaints of sexism towards women is "maybe you're right but you said it in a way that hurts people's feelings, so we're going to ignore you. Try again next time."
I think the challenge is there is disagreement about who is the aggrieved party. Are women aggrieved because the memo made them feel unwelcome, or is Damore the aggrieved party because he was raising a grievance?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#697Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are many, many reasonable criticisms of the memo that do not focus on writing style. Here are a few examples - https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-dam... https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...
That wired article was excellent. And it proves one thing to my mind. Regardless of everything else, Damore's memo has lead me to vastly expand my knowledge of the debates in this domain, through just being a curious observer watching it all unfold. It's been wonderful, if extremely provocative, in generating proper debate on the subject, focussed on all possible angles, from writing style, to science, to hiring poli…
What? The Wired article basically says "the social sciences of gender are still up for grabs/worthless, unlike nuclear physics".
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#698I really enjoyed the well reasoned discussion. I think a lot more constructive dialog is happening now that people have calmed down. Of all the sentiments expressed in the article, I mainly disagree with the comment that Damore did the company harm. He posted his thoughts on an internal discussion board and someone else leaked this internal document to the press. The leaker did harm to Google not Damore. In fact, I t…
Lets assume that we're in an alternative universe where the document was never leaked. The document still did harm. Just read this quote from the posted article- > When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have? How do I prove myself to people one way or another? Th…
> There is real harm done if women who work at a company don't feel they are welcome there.
Using that logic, should every male feel unwelcomed because of the pro-female activity at google and in corporate america?
Can't damore and every male make the same argument?
Should men feel offended that ycombinator has a "Ask a female engineer" segment but no "Ask a male engineer" segment?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#699Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Damore points to studies showing that, e.g. women are more agreeable and more people-oriented. From that, he concludes women on average are less likely to prefer programming. That's Diekman 2010: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631322 "Although women have nearly attained equality with men in several formerly male-dominated fields, they remain underrepresented in the fields of science, technology, engineering,…
I found that study here: https://sc.lib.miamioh.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.MIA/6026/di... "Participants were 333 introductory psychology students (193 women) who participated for partial course credit, and 27 paid participants (14 women) from STEM classes. The majority (86.94%) were of European American descent. The median age was 19 years, ranging from 18 to 43. " "For each of the core careers, participants rated how…
She's done some research since in this area, see publication list: https://miamioh.edu/cas/academics/departments/psychology/abo...
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#700Isn't a ycombinator blog dedicated solely for women sexist. Isn't "Ask a Female Engineer" sexist? If ycombinator only had "Ask a Male Engineer" wouldn't they be attacked for it?