The PyCon Incident • Hacker News Board

Re: The PyCon Incident

#681

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:46 AM UTC

zem wrote: post #617

jessaustin wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see a difference between an employee losing her job and a company losing some business? You must be in management.

if the company were pressured into firing adria in order to get their customer base back, would you feel justice had been served?

I prefer mercy to "justice", as if the latter ever happens, as if we'd recognize it if it did. I don't want anyone to be fired for her speech, but I realize that in this world it's going to happen occasionally. I'm sure you'll misunderstand this comment, because you have systematically misunderstood every comment in this thread so far, but I mean it when say that I would have preferred that none of the parties involved be fired as a result of this incident.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#682

Post by edmond_dantes » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:46 AM UTC

newnewnew wrote: post #421

edmond_dantes wrote: post #384

I am feminist. As a visible minority, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied man I try to be acutely of my own prejudices and cognitive biases. I sympathize with women who experience hostility and chauvinism at tech conferences. "Brogrammers" and male-exclusive behaviour is bad for the industry and should be written about and exposed. What these two men did was not sexist. It was unprofessional but it was not exclusi…

It looks like those that say the goals of feminism are to create a privileged class of women have some evidence. Women can now rule men by right of whether or not they are "offended" (note, that only the offense of protected classes are holy, and men are not a protected class).

What evidence did you find in my comment that privileged women over men? Adria was offended and I disagreed with her assessment of sexism and exclusion.

What your describing isn't feminism, but some kind of matriarchy where we must appease and not offend the ruling class of women.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#683

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:46 AM UTC

ratat wrote: post #448

jasonlotito wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late. This is besides the point, as the claims were verified. But, I believe you are wrong. I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. Heck, her claims were verified, and their is still a much strong backlash from the community toward her and SendGrid. I agree. Crying wolf is should not be encouraged. But many t…

>I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. I believe you are wrong. The majority reponse would have been that she was telling the truth and nobody else overheard it.

Whereas that's it's been confirmed, there is a backlash against her.

So, the key is: make the accusation and don't prove it.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#684

Post by sologoub » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:49 AM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #675

mynameishere wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words fail me. Words fail you? That view is establishment orthodoxy. Were you seriously not aware of that?

I was not, no.

I've run into this view point occasionally, but never would I have guessed it to be even close to mainstream...

Re: The PyCon Incident

#685

Post by wpietri » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:49 AM UTC

ratat wrote: post #311

blhack wrote: post #7

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. --And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here-- The c…

> They don't want to get treated like "a girl" That's the thing. If this isn't what she wants, then she shouldn't act like such an incredibly immature child. What she did was many times more 'immature' than what the men allegedly said. They allegedly exchanged a harmless, obviously immature joke between themselves, and should have been quieter given the setting. That's their fault. She then responds by posting a slan…

That picture was not covertly taken; the guy could clearly see the camera. Pictures can't be slanderous (or libelous); they're factual records. The quote was quite baseful, in that it was based on what she heard. All personal experience is non-provable in the sense you mean, but that doesn't mean that witness statements are meaningless. Indeed, they're a foundation of justice systems everywhere.

She definitely had the legal right to do it. In her shoes, I hope wouldn't have. But then again, I'm not the one at subject to all sorts of sexual harassment. People can only take so much.

Your hypothetical is a little crazed. It makes me think your screen is flecked with spittle. The guy admitted the quotes and admitted an error. He claims the forking comment was not intended to be sexual, but looking at the wording I have a hard time believing that. Certainly one could reasonably take it as a sexual joke.

Also, your closing flounce is a lot less persuasive with a newly created anonymous account. One less generously disposed than I am might suspect your company and your partners are entirely fictional.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#686

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:49 AM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #22

Couple pieces to this. First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer. Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here. The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke. From PyCon's code of conduct: "All communication should…

So you'd agree that Adria shouldn't be allowed to PyCon next year since she posted face pictures of attendees (and sponsors) and then called them 'ass clowns'?

This is not just about PyCon that is for the whole world to see. Future employees, these guys' kids, family, friends. Is that acceptable you think?

I also think there is space here for PSF to also issue an explicit statement regarding public humiliation and posting face pictures of attendees with slanderous and insulting captions. It is about free speech and all, and maybe if she caught them in lobby without their badges on it might have been OK.

If anything this damaged PyCon's reputation. I don't want to go anymore as much. I keep my mouth shut anyway, but what if I say something wrong, or look at someone the wrong way -- now my picture with my badge and an insult is plastered over twitter. That is the definition of a hostile environment, no matter what gender, color, sexual orientation.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#687

Post by cupcake-unicorn » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:50 AM UTC

I think the issue here is more her posting the picture and identifying the people, no? I had a strong urge to tweet "There's a guy with a Jagermeister hat and Green Day shirt reading a Berenstain Bears book in the doctor's waiting room" a couple months ago, and as funny as it was, I wouldn't have posted a stranger's picture.

I think it's fine to vent on Twitter about the things going on around you, the medium is suited to that. It's easy to use it as your own personal live log. But it's not necessary and I think a privacy violation to post random pictures of people.

Perhaps she just takes a lot of pictures and was in super tweeting mode, like tweeting every meal and had a lapse of judgement? Didn't look at her other tweets. But that is the issue, that of the picture, correct? At first I didn't realize there was a link to a photo anyway and didn't know what the big deal is. Not sure what kind of employer would fire someone over a photo of someone claiming that they said something (privately) as well.

It's sad because it makes it harder for women who have more serious concerns to be taken seriously, and to let those women also have reactions and express their discomfort, in a way that doesn't include publically shaming all those involved for more minor incidents like this.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#688

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:51 AM UTC

integraton wrote: post #464

jasonlotito wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PyCon has a code of conduct. The write up regarding this specific incident is here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... People are allowed to make offensive jokes. Except when they agree not to. By attending PyCon, you are making that agreement. In the end, the result was resolved well by all 3 parties. The issue is that one of the parties got fired. An overreaction by his ex-employer. In…

> PyCon has a code of conduct. PyCon attendee procedure for handling harassment: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential...The staff is well informed on how to deal with the incident and how to further proceed with the situation...Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to…

And she followed it, in writing.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#689

Post by devilshaircut » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:53 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #626

blhack wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously trying to draw a connection between two guys making a joke to each other about how the word "dongle" sounds like the word "dong"... ... to a person being sexually assaulted ?

I am seriously saying that I have talked with people who have been made uncomfortable by sexual jokes in non-sexual contexts, and that they have told me that part of their discomfort came from fear. Fear that they were in a situation where sexual harassment or sexual assault was a sudden possibility.

Are you claiming that in the incident in question, a conclusion that she was in imminent danger of sexual assault is what motivated her to say these things? It seems beyond far-fetched but assume that is how she felt at the time. This does not exempt her from us thinking critically about whether or not that is a fair - much less: rational - conclusion. What in the context of the situation as it has been described would lead her into believing they were targeting her or sexually harassing her? It is irrational and seriously makes me question her low opinion of her own gender's threshold of insult.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#690

Post by devilshaircut » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:55 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #250

tadfisher wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we need to remain eternally vigilant of the thousands of years of sexism during our day-to-day dealings? We need to be constantly thinking of the women and minorities in the room before we say anything? How is this being gender-neutral?

You should always think about the impact of what you're saying. What is the point of saying something but to have an effect on your listeners?

I believe it was you who simply did not think about the impact of your words when you compared the situation to that of 2 gay men discussing "virgin asshole". I think you need a moment of introspection on your own commentary.