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Being ambitious and being a dad

nicholascharriere.com

681–690 of 802 posts

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different generations, different places, exactly where you are in your society, religious influences, your immediate social circle, how much time you spend on social media.... Certainly in the UK there is a group of people who have become very negative about having kids, partly because they are scared of the expense, and partly because society makes it look so hard, and partly because they genuinely have less support…

Pregnancy is also a really scary prospect for a lot of people (myself included), and there doesn't seem to be much work done in trying to make it, well, less shitty of an experience. "It's just how it is," but... is it really? Does it really need to be so bad? Not to mention that "it takes a village", but in many places the village has been basically stolen from us.

Pregnancy is never going to be easy (and its one part of parenting I am glad I did not have to do!) but it can definitely be made easier and more pleasant. it varies a lot though. We were quite lucky in many ways.

However, why is pregnancy scarier than it used to be when it is safer than it has ever been? It seems to be more scary in developed countries than in poor ones too.

I wonder whether the loss of the "village" might be part of the reason for this. it certainly is for a lot of other things around having kids.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#682

Personally, I decided that being ambitious at work wasn't as important to me relative to being involved in my kids' lives, and intentionally pulled back. I'm fortunate that my work offers part time options, so I went down to 80%. I take two half days per week to spend the afternoon with my kids after school.

To quote Billy Joel: “you can get what you want or you can just get old”

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#683
"I do not believe the quality time theory."

Over time I've come to realize that some of the most organic time—sometimes seemingly mundane, other times seemingly very unpleasant—spent with your kids can yield some incredibly high quality downstream. It isn't about being opportunistic. It's about gradually building something together. It's the same with any relationship. If you treated your spouse like this, they would leave you. If you treat your kids like this, they're mostly trapped, but given the chance one day, they will likely leave you behind to some degree or another.

Things worth building take time, effort, dedication, and perseverance. Social relations are the epitome of this. There are no short cuts. Everyone notices when you're opportunistic. Your kids most of all.

The author expresses frustration, which I totally feel too. But I often remind myself that life was never promised to be easy, nor are many things worth doing very easy (and if they are, acquiring or experiencing those things is usually the fruit of some other effort).

I've tended to enjoy being ambitious about work because it comes so easily, too. While it feels great to be productive, I'm not sure it means what it feels like it means. My productivity doesn't mean anything to others, other than my employers. Who cares? My kids don't care. My wife doesn't care. And all the while it doesn't really push me to grow in any direction other than one I already feel very comfortable with. In my experience, this is fine and healthy to engage in moderately, but going bananas with it directly subtracts from the rest of your life (such as your relationship with your kids). And there's no way that in 30 years at the end of my life I'd be glad I was good at... What, building stuff on the computer? Do I want to be alone with that thought? Not at all.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#684

I have a positive look on this. Most successful people I know have much higher number of children than the average. Unicorn and decacorn founders with 2-5 kids, every single one I know. I think it's the energy and desire to live a rich fulfilling life. Building a company was part of it, but at least for me, family is ever greater fulfillment. From where I can see, all are still together with their kids parent and see…

>I think it's the energy and desire to live a rich fulfilling life

Don't forget the narcissism.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#685
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting perspective. Your first paragraph also describes my experience, perfectly. However, even though I also think nothing comes even close to parenthood for me, my perspective is that society strongly encourages —I'd even say strongly pressures— people to have kids, to feel that if you don't, it's almost like something is wrong with you. Maybe we're just different generations? :-)

Yeah, speaking as a female-bodied person here - undoubtedly a minority on this site - I absolutely feel the pressure to have children in society, pretty much every day. Look at the "birth rate" discourse that's been going on. There's tremendous pressure on women to have more babies. There's also a lot of pendulum-swinging in the opposite direction with your edgy "antinatalists", in some sort of weird "overcorrection"…

Does the birth rate discourse put pressure on you as an individual? I had expected that to also be more of an online than real life push.

There is more pressure on women to have kids than on men. That is not new. What is new is a more negative attitude to children and parenting in society in general. Do you feel there are conflicting pressures now?

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#686
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting perspective. Your first paragraph also describes my experience, perfectly. However, even though I also think nothing comes even close to parenthood for me, my perspective is that society strongly encourages —I'd even say strongly pressures— people to have kids, to feel that if you don't, it's almost like something is wrong with you. Maybe we're just different generations? :-)

Yeah, speaking as a female-bodied person here - undoubtedly a minority on this site - I absolutely feel the pressure to have children in society, pretty much every day. Look at the "birth rate" discourse that's been going on. There's tremendous pressure on women to have more babies. There's also a lot of pendulum-swinging in the opposite direction with your edgy "antinatalists", in some sort of weird "overcorrection"…

This onslaught of birth rate articles laying the blame at women's feet drives me up a wall. Many of my female peers have frozen their eggs to preserve their ability to have children to the best of their abilities or have undergone fertility evaluations proactively, other female friends in their 30s/40s have pursued the single-mom-by-choice route once they had the financial security to do so. I do not see my male peers pursuing sperm testing / freezing or pursuing single-fatherhood-by-choice. Of my married friends with kids, if there is a second kid it has been because the wife advocated for it. All that said, I don't blame men either the husbands that were talked into the second kid were all concerned about their ability to pay for school / daycare and/or to afford another bedroom even with the help of their working wives / breadwinner wives. For men talked into their first kid, their hesitation was that after undergraduate and masters they felt they'd barely had time to financially establish themselves or live their own lives.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#687

I'm shocked by the amount of time people who don't have kids waste. So while PG may believe that people may have their "act already together" pre-kids, I sort of look at the amount of time people without kids waste and think "if only I had that much free time..."

Yes. Before I became a dad, I didn't realize how physically and financially constrained people are with regards to number of kids that they have. For me and my wife, our first child took all our time, resources and energy. This was a shock to me because my parents had 4 children and never seemed to struggle. Also, they were much better off than me financially and could afford to hire help. My biggest achievement as a…

>Because he would grow up into someone like me and that would be my greatest fear

If you didn't want someone to be like you, then you probably shouldn't have given them 50% of your DNA. If it's any consolation, a child's eventual personality has very little to do with their upbringing.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The passionate hunger to do something significant and meaningful with my life was a major reason I took care never to have any children. Raising kids is probably the most meaningful and significant thing I have done with my life.

Is it really? How much of that is a "feeling" that evolution made you feel in order to protect your kid from issues? having kids is the baseline normal for millions of years. As much as you "feel" that this is the most important thing you ever did, it is worth taking a step back and think rationally about this. Is it really? What about it makes it SO important? Because we for sure are not going extinct at all. Having…

Any kind of accomplishment outside of having kids could also be boiled down to an "evolutionary" drive for status, power, belonging, etc.

Why is this nihilist lens applied selectively to one pursuit and not others?

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pregnancy is also a really scary prospect for a lot of people (myself included), and there doesn't seem to be much work done in trying to make it, well, less shitty of an experience. "It's just how it is," but... is it really? Does it really need to be so bad? Not to mention that "it takes a village", but in many places the village has been basically stolen from us.

Pregnancy is never going to be easy (and its one part of parenting I am glad I did not have to do!) but it can definitely be made easier and more pleasant. it varies a lot though. We were quite lucky in many ways. However, why is pregnancy scarier than it used to be when it is safer than it has ever been? It seems to be more scary in developed countries than in poor ones too. I wonder whether the loss of the "village…

I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that birth control offers us a choice in the matter. Pregnancy used to be something You Just Did, because, well, most people enjoy having sex, and pregnancy is the intended consequence of unprotected sex. It's scary, it's stressful, it's risky, and it's sometimes even fatal... but it's "part of life". It's how we ended up here, after all.

Now we have a choice. Which is GREAT, amazing, even. Absolutely necessary. I'll never argue that anyone's right to choose if they want to be a parent is a bad thing.

I wonder if social media is also contributing, with its polarizing nature. It's rare you see any opinions or even anecdotes about pregnancy being "fine" or "whatever". It's always a big deal, and it's always a big deal (horrible) or a big deal (wonderful). There's not a lot of in between. The negative end of the spectrum scares people, while the positive end of the spectrum is met with skepticism since it's too-often (for me at least) correlated with right-wing religious people trying to push women to be what're effectively baby factories, so the "it's the most wonderful experience ever!" just comes off as disingenuous and manipulative.

Combined with the fact that women's healthcare is rife with challenges, and women's pain is often dismissed (not looking to start any "gender wars" arguments; just stating things that can be backed up https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10937548/), the prospect of becoming pregnant is a scary one, when you have the option to not do that.

"What if it's nine months of constant nausea, being bedbound, gaining weight I'll never be able to lose? My body will change, in many ways irreversibly. Will my partner still find me attractive? Will they support me during? Will they support me after? Will I feel supported? Will I feel resentment that they'll be able to enjoy things like alcohol while I'll have to stay completely sober for a very long time? Will I feel resentment if the majority of childcare falls on me, which is statistically actually quite likely? What about my career? Will I regret it? What if my child is born with a disability? What if I'm bad at being a mom? What if I hate it? What if I'm trapped in a life I don't want? What if there's no way out?"

Of course, the above thought process could also be one with thoughts like "what if it's wonderful?" but it's a lot easier to worry about the negative, and put weight on the negative, than it is to fantasize and put weight on the positive what-ifs.

This is just my perspective, though. Some people love being pregnant and find parenthood really wonderful (or so they tell me about those things), and I love that for them. Truly. I'm just not sure if I have it in me to ever find out what it would be like for me, and I know I'm not alone. Fun Auntie is a better role for me I think. But maybe I would feel differently if pregnancy were easier and a less destructive process on the female body, and there was more social support for parents.

Re: Being ambitious and being a dad

#690
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree, except that you've taken ambitious to mean climbing the corporate ladder, which is a relatively narrow reading. It can also mean wanting a achieve a large dream or goal e.g. writing a book.

I think the OP's logic applies. Every author is hoping their book is a best-seller and/or wins awards i.e. the approval of others.

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