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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#681

Post by sokoloff »

mothballed wrote: post #562
542354234235 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to leave. You aren't free to go wherever you want. You aren't free to go into the employee areas, or out onto the runway. If you don't clear security, you aren't allowed in the secure portion of the airport. Not allowing entry into an area is not "detaining you from moving forward".

If the government is requiring the property owner to submit to TSA, that's a public act and not a private one, which means it is bound by the bill of rights and most importantly the 4th 5th and maybe even 6th amendment. The government cannot punish you for exercising your rights by refusing you to move forward into the private place you could otherwise lawfully go. If you can't go to the employee area, that's because…

Just wait until you find out how the feds enacted the 55mph speed limit or are using the threat of revoking Medicare funding for hospitals that perform certain medical procedures that the feds would like to have not happen...

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#682

Post by sokoloff »

ziml77 wrote: post #309
crazygringo wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just federal law. Cities don't own restaurants either but can fine them and close them if health inspections fail, because there's a law for that. The legal basis is the federal laws written specifically around airport security.

I think the question here is, which laws?

LMGTFY: Aviation and Transportation Security Act

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ71/html/PLAW...

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#683

Post by 0x457 »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #440
0x457 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need two documents for proof. It's really not that hard. Poor that can't produce these documents probably can't afford a plane ticket either, so how is it a problem? Y'all have some weird ideas about how poor people are incapable of have two pieces of paper that have: 1) their name 2) their address

Rather you lack perspective on the wider world. It is not uncommon to have an "unofficial" living situation and work under the table. In that scenario which documents would have your name and address on it? Will the DMV accept a purchase order from Amazon? Get real.

Even when I worked under the table and was out of status, I always had enough documents to get Real ID (but couldn't due to status).

For context, at one point I couldn't even get AB60 license in California because I didn't have a single photo ID that isn't expired, and you just need some photo id and pulse to get AB60.

> Will the DMV accept a purchase order from Amazon?

DMV accepted my marriage license and bank statement. Bank accepted "I will mail you my card, bring back in sealed envelope".

> Rather you lack perspective on the wider world.

I don't think so.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#684

Post by caseysoftware »

figassis wrote: post #666
caseysoftware wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable hypothesis but not correct in the US. The point where you present your ticket+ID is before and separate from the physical screening. It could be anywhere from a few meters to dozens of meters separating them. At the screening stage, the agents do not know who you are or your nationality.

It's not about being recognized, it's about when you are asked to be patted down, having the courage to lie "I can't raise my arms over my head", knowing the risk of being caught is at worst not making this flight. For a foreigner it might be getting banned permanently from the country. Same concept as self censorship. You do what you're told and then you go enjoy your vacation.

Understood and reasonable but one correction:

> when you are asked to be patted down, having the courage to lie "I can't raise my arms over my head"

You only get a pat down if you trigger additional screening or opt out. Not being able to raise my arms is NOT opting out. Therefore, no pat down.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#685

Post by 0x457 »

tdeck wrote: post #437
0x457 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because many Americans are against national ID at all cost for some reason. The very same Americans think that immigrants need to have their "I'm legal" folder with them at all times.

What are the practical benefits we're supposed to get from the RealID system? All I've ever heard is "national security" which is the excuse for every harmful thing.

For started, we stop talking about "Is Real ID worth it" and annual "Real ID for sure will be required next year"

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#686

Post by czhu12 »

caseysoftware wrote: post #160
paxys wrote: post #23

It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?" "Well I don't have a Real ID." "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." So it was never about security at all then, was it? And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and la…

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

I’m genuinely confused by this take. Admittedly my knowledge of exactly how the TSA operates is quite shallow, but don’t they xray your bags and scan for weapons on your body?

Are we saying that if they stopped doing that there would not be an increase in incidents?

Or is it that they are overly performative? I’ve never been all that annoyed with raising my hands above my head, but it seems like, in your case, if a passenger can’t do that, they would make an exception for you anyways. Which seems fair?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#687

Post by lux-lux-lux »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #609
lmm wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it make you feel good to participate in a meaningless charade of security theater? Or would you rather spend your time doing some of value? I think there is a lot of value in being part of a democratic society that has structured dispute-resolution processes. Part of the cost of that is occasionally going along with something pointless (even if some things warrant civil disobedience, not everything does), and…

So "Just don't be gay/smoke weed, it's not legal, if you don't like it there's a process to get that changed" is the kind of viewpoint that's compatible with your ideology then? Law in a democracy ALWAYS lags public sentiment because without sentiment to pander to no politician will lift a finger. Overt sentiment always lags behind closed doors sentiment because practically nobody is gonna display overt sentiment unt…

> Law in a democracy ALWAYS lags public sentiment because without sentiment to pander to no politician will lift a finger

Not always, just the last few decades.

Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1431/

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#688

Post by keeda »

pjc50 wrote: post #501
keeda wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

The problem with allowing "feels unsafe" to drive policy is that you get this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46866201 ; a lot of Americans (and other nationalities) get that "feels unsafe" feeling when they see a visible minority. Or a Muslim. Or someone who isn't a Muslim but (like a Sikh!) is from the same hemisphere as the Middle East. You get one set of people's rights compromised to salve the feelings of…

Oh for sure, as a non-white, bearded person I've had more than my fair share of "random" screenings!

My dad, with similar features, had the additional (mis)fortune of several work trips to the Middle East and China on his passport. He was "randomly" selected pretty much every time on his US trips, until about ~10 years ago.

Hmmm, now I wonder. Like most other people I had suspected that the "random" screenings of people fitting a certain profile were just biases of the agents creeping in. But could it be, given that the whole process is rather public in view of the rest of the people in line, this is also part of that security theater... i.e. maybe the agents are sometimes pandering to the biases of the travellers?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#689

Post by mlsu »

mft_ wrote: post #423
keeda wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

> A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where somebody felt uncomfortable boarding a plane because they saw the screening agent asleep at the desk. I’d hazard that this may be true now , but this feeling was created by the same “security measures” we’re discussing. Anyway, such major population-wide measur…

> If you start imposing laws or other practices every time a group of people feel “uncomfortable”, the world will quickly grind to a halt.

I mean, yes, quite an apt description of our reality. This has basically been the modus operandi of the whole of American society for the last 3 decades.

Can't have your kids riding bikes in the neighborhood. Can't build something on your own property yourself without 3 rounds of permitting and environmental review. Can't have roads that are too narrow for a 1100 horsepower ladder truck. Can't get onto a plane without going through a jobs program. Can't cut hair without a certificate. Can't teach 6 year olds without 3 years of post grad schooling + debt. Can't have plants in a waiting room because they might catch on fire. Can't have a comfortable bench because someone who looks like shit might sleep on it.

Can't can't can't can't ...

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#690

Post by poulsbohemian »

deepsun wrote: post #118
BryantD wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am only guessing but I'd be surprised if it was a money grab. My instinct is that it's a way of highlighting RealID citizenship verification.

RealID is unrelated to citizenship. It's a proof of an address, akin to soviet-style "propiska", which was very important and hard to get without (it also affected ownership/inheritance). What's more fun is that even though they accept different types of residence, they mostly trust utility bills -- but to set up utilities on your name even for your personal home utility company will ask a lot of documents, including…

>RealID is unrelated to citizenship.

Except that it appears one of the primary reasons this has become a thing is that the Feds are angry at states like Washington that don't verify citizenship when issuing driver's licenses. The whole point was that Washington (as an example) wanted to make sure people were able to get an identification and driving with a license (IE: some degree of documentation, had achieved some degree of driver's education and testing somewhere along the line...) regardless of their immigration status - and that pissed off the Feds. So it shouldn't be related to citizenship but that's part of how we got here.

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