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Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

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Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#681

Post by tivert »

vitorgrs wrote: post #641
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

And as far I know, if you go there with roaming ON with your phone, these social networks still work as well.

> And as far I know, if you go there with roaming ON with your phone, these social networks still work as well.

That's because roaming phone traffic is routed through your home carrier, through whatever telephone traffic peering agreement the phone companies have.

If a Chinese person roams to the US using a Chinese cell phone plan, it works in the other direction. So their phone is still behind the great firewall even though they're physically outside of China.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#682

Post by b112 »

a_random_canuck wrote: post #666
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

“Officially” is meaningless here. The blocking exists, and it is at the direction or under the control of their government. They are yet same thing. You know, if it looks like a duck. This is standard operating procedure for the communist party. They rarely say any kind of topics or activities are banned outright. It’s just that if you say the wrong things in the wrong place, a bunch of plainclothes police will come…

Indeed. And this solidifies their control, because anything may be illegal at any moment.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#684

Post by thanksgiving »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #661
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

They could operate there if they submitted themselves to Chinese government censorship (aka "local laws"). Google pulled out because it refused to. Facebook really wanted to (Zuck even made a trip there to talk to Chinese officials) but ultimately decided (correctly) that doing so would greatly hurt it in the US/Europe. Same for Twitter (pre-Elon).

No, it should just work. I can understand having to abide by China PR laws if you have actual money transactions on the mainland but if all my customers are outside China PR and all I'm doing is making my website available to the people in China PR assuming I'm not breaking any laws, my website should be available to users in China PR.

I guess this last part is the loophole they will drive a truck through in hindsight. They will make up some nonsense or maybe even find a legitimate scam and ban Facebook based on that?

But really once they ban Facebook, we should be able to reciprocate and ban tick tack.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#685

Post by galdosdi »

danieltanfh95 wrote: post #301
returningfory2 wrote: post #38

The work "ban" is in scare quotes for a reason. The law doesn't ban TikTok. Rather, it bans TikTok from having Chinese owners. If the law stands, the end result will likely be that TikTok will be sold to US owners, rather than TikTok going away. It's surprising to me that this this pretty significant distinction has been glossed over both in media reporting and in general comments here on HN. To be clear, I'm not sup…

Just because it doesn’t say “ban” doesn’t mean its not one. It is well known that China lists algorithms and AI models trained on citizen data as a non-export so tiktok will never be able to sell to anyone other than a Chinese company unless they retrain the model etc. The CEO has mentioned that they will simply pull out of the US market.

I am baffled that any thoughtful person would take a CEO statement at face value without considering incentives.

1) prior to bill passage, convincing the public that they will pull out is optimal as it helps argue against bill, regardless of whether it is at all true

2) but, after bill passage, the incentives are totally different. Pulling out means giving up a billion dollar market that could instead have been sold. The shareholders would be livid.

So I am very skeptical. I have heard CEOs say many things they later were found to clearly never have meant seriously, simply because it was what they needed to say at the time. Like, "we would never do outsourcing or layoffs, your division is totally safe"....

I would think thoughtful HN readers would be just a little less credulous

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#686

Post by csa »

bdd8f1df777b wrote: post #658
benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

The US bans TikTok citing the same reasons China bans foreign social media, to avoid influence from foreign adversaries (people below says that China never official bans it, but China is inconsistent on that). It is only fair from a business perspective, but it also means that China's ideology wins over American in the end. The China's own social media is full of posts ridiculing people like me who have believed in t…

Next level sock puppetry!

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#687

Post by FpUser »

charonn0 wrote: post #563
FpUser wrote: post #477

They can make web client and show middle finger. If this happens the US will be forced to block domains and VPNs.

The law applies to websites too.

What law? They can block domain but that's about it.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#688

Post by moneycantbuy »

gverrilla wrote: post #561
moneycantbuy wrote: post #403

good, not only is it malware/spyware, the chinese government can shape the beliefs and behaviors of > 100,000,000 americans at the flip of a switch. albeit users are idiots for giving their attention in the first place. and because capitalism = god, will probably end up selling to the saudis.

so this must be true for american social media in other countries aswell??? or is it exclusive to tiktok "because communism"?

yes, facebook can/does propagandize the populations of other countries, though perhaps slightly less nefariously than if an authoritarian/totalitarian government was at the helm. fb is banned in china so there is that. interesting times. all hail king zuck in his fbverse.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#689

Post by throwawayq3423 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #617
benced wrote: post #615

The WTO allows China to ban American social networks - which would otherwise be required to be allowed under its general principle of parity - because of its "public morals" exception ( https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/repertory_e/g4_... ). I personally don't think that exception should exist and I'm OK banning it solely on trade parity grounds.

China doesn't actually ban American social networks, not officially at least. They just don't work for some reason due to technical issues. China has never said "we ban Facebook and Google", you just wake up one day and they aren't working anymore.

I thought you were going with "China doesn't ban American companies, American companies simply refuse to obey Chinese law".

The laws in question are becoming a subsidiary of the state, of course.

Re: Biden signs TikTok bill into law, starting clock for ByteDance to divest

#690

Post by WhatIsAModel »

togg wrote: post #678
danieltanfh95 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it doesn’t say “ban” doesn’t mean its not one. It is well known that China lists algorithms and AI models trained on citizen data as a non-export so tiktok will never be able to sell to anyone other than a Chinese company unless they retrain the model etc. The CEO has mentioned that they will simply pull out of the US market.

As I understand TikTok has been investing in building out a U.S. fulfillment center network over the past two years, perhaps a drop in the bucket for them. With this investment and the loads of U.S employees they have I would be surprised if they leave their large (largest?) user base.

This they can actually sell, plenty of fulfillment companies that would be interested in buying. They aren't selling their tech though and I don't blame them, Facebook wouldn't sell to be in China so whatever. However, I am disappointed because we aren't China and shouldn't govern the same. I personally will be voting for any non incumbent going forward (for my remaining time in this country, I'm getting out of here), the current legislature on both sides is insane, dangerous and (obviously) slowly creeping up the road of fascism.
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