Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#681

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:03 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #626

anthony_romeo wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s another aspect: there’s a horrible lack of common decency and respect by supervisors and managers of low-wage workers. Having worked menial data entry, warehouse, grocery store, fast food jobs, I’ve interacted with far too many stressed-out and abusive/abused bosses who cannot cope with the razor-thin timelines with minimal workforce (which seems to be the norm) and ultimately exhaust this irritating heat ont…

> there’s a horrible lack of common decency and respect by supervisors and managers of low-wage workers. Yeah, if the entire culture creating class/media/academia is agreed that people who don’t have college degrees are worthless failures or at best need other people to make their decisions for them there’s not going to be much respect going round. The Anglo West is not Japan.

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#682

Post by 55555 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:03 AM UTC

scaramanga wrote: post #608

kukx wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seem…

> Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? I would say, a place where you don't have to share quarters with strangers, be exposed to violence, drugs, have your sleep interrupted, where the housing is stable enough that you don't need to leave…

A lot of the issues you reasonably want to avoid seem like they could be solved more directly by other means. The argument seems to be, "America is a hell hole, so everyone needs enough money to escape it." There are poor countries where people dont live in fear of eviction and the slums arent full of violence and drugs. Maybe it's too difficult to change culture though, and we should just throw money at the problem.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#683

Post by alwayshasbeen » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

If a business makes very little profit - why not closing it? It makes no sense to keep something alive that only works out when you pay your employees basically nothing.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#684

Post by nimos » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #620

nimos wrote: post #511

I've never liked the idea we should expect businesses to provide a living wage. If we, as a society, think there is some sort of minimum standard for living. (We should) Then we, as a society, should pay for it. Increasing minimum wage seems like a roundabout unfair way of doing that via selective inflation. Which as far as I can tell would be largely a wealth transfer from the middle class to the lower class. Who sp…

>I think the government should guarantee some minimum wage and top people who don't earn that. That would be horrible. The bottom of wages would drop to zero (since offering above zero but below the government guatantee would provide no benefit in highering.) This would drag down other low wages since the jump from paying zero to paying just over minmum would be a huge cost increase for a minor highering benefit. UBI…

> Obviously a lot of moral hazard issues and complications

Yes it would be difficult to implement. You would encourage people to seek higher paying jobs by progressively phasing the wage subsidy out. Or just not phase it out at all. No real difference between the two depending on income taxes.

On the other side you could also target a certain cyclical unemployment rate and have a minimum wage employers must pay that fluctuates with that. That way there isn't an incentive to have "wink wink nudge nudge" pretend jobs.

My problem with the UBI is I think the amount needed to be meaningful (1k+ a month) gives people enough money to check out of society and not be a contributing member. Its super inexpensive to live with friends somewhere kind of crappy and just do basically nothing productive.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#685

Post by treis » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:15 AM UTC

rbg246 wrote: post #325

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

>These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that.

Doesn't that just end with bankrupt businesses and unemployed workers?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#686

Post by lostcolony » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:16 AM UTC

Ericson2314 wrote: post #611

lostcolony wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion is a legally protected class; everyone is free to change their religion. Pregnancy is also a legally protected class, despite being one that half the population can enter and leave. Also, short term disabilities. I don't find this argument compelling, unless you're also arguing that employers should be able to pay people less for their religion or because they get pregnant (or choose not to get pregnant) or…

That's a different use of class, but an important one too. We want people's choices around families and religion to be free from outside coercion, so we have special protections. Short term disabilities are not a choice but also non-universal, and without the protection they might worsen into long-term ones. But being a teenager is a not a choice, and not something that happens to some people but not others. Again, t…

Seems like you're reaaaally splitting hairs here. Young age is okay to discriminate against, but not old age (because you don't leave old age without dying). Anything people can enter and leave by choice is not okay to discriminate against if it's -important-, like family or religion.

What about menstruation? That's pretty universal to women (not entirely especially with non-cisgendered), not really a choice (at least, not without encroaching on the same protections you'd want with pregnancy), and all those who do menstruate enter and leave it (both monthly, and at menopause)...what's your objection to discriminating against menstruating women?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#687

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:17 AM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #672

dragonwriter wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids.

I sincerely doubt that. 1) Kids are unlikely to be as effective. 2) There's not that many kids. It's all just motivated reasoning to argue against a significant minimum wage.

> 1) Kids are unlikely to be as effective. 2) There's not that many kids.

Neither of those even support the argument that a change from equal minimum wage would have the effect of moving jobs from adults to kids.

The first would be a good argument for a smaller displacement effect from allowing teens to work with equal minimum wage to adults conpared to not allowing them to work at all than would occur at equal effectiveness, the second semana yo be a sortear of an argument about the magnitude of effect but without a definition of what “that many” meand in context is only a sketch.

> It's all just motivated reasoning to argue against a significant minimum wage.

it's not an argument against ‘a significant minimim wage’ at all.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#688

Post by fwip » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:17 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

A 10% profit can be a lot, if like many restaurants you're pulling $5-10k in revenue in a day. Many owners own multiple restaurants, too.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#689

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #648

dragonwriter wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids.

> Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids. Then corps would have to rewrite the application algorithms that serially discriminate against 1st time job applicants.

> Then corps would have to rewrite the application algorithms that serially discriminate against 1st time job applicants.

Places that hire people at minimum wage mostly wouldn't have that problem for those positions

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#690

Post by iamflimflam1 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

There are plenty of countries who have had minimum wage for some time and have increased that minimum wage over time. So there have been lots of studies done on the impact of it. Here’s one:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

> This report includes the findings from a meta-analysis of the empirical UK national minimum wage literature. Similar to a previous UK minimum wage study by de Linde Leonard et al. (2014), this study finds no statistically significant aggregate adverse employment effect of the NMW and also no publication bias in the NMW literature. However, estimates for different sub-groups suggest some relatively larger adverse employment effects for some labour market groups, such as part-time employees.