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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#681

Post by pvaldes »

alehul wrote: post #580
panglott wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…

You summed it up really well. I think the issue lies in that those central governments have become more tame over time, while Spain hasn't. They were largely united under a dictator where, in the very recent past, it was illegal for Catalans to teach their language or even speak it publicly. Spain realizes the fragility of their position, and they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have.

> they're choosing to lash out in the same way Franco would have.

sigh... Again asking for the blood bath?

What really Franco would have done? Well, Franco would have killed hundred-thousands of people. Again.

How many Catalonian independentists has been killed by the current spanish government since october? ZE-RO?.

Wake-up. Zero is not equal to thousands. Talk seriously or don't talk but please, stop with all this Franco BS. This comparison is insulting for any people with more than two alive brain cells that endured the Franco regime.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#682

Post by alehul »

kgwgk wrote: post #609
alehul wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said of Estonia in the recent past, and it has done quite well as an independent nation.

What does “recent past” mean for you? Estonia became independent in 1920 (or 1918 if you count since the beginning of the war of independence) and was independent until the Soviet occupation in 1940.

Considering another relevant example posted elsewhere in this thread was the Swedish War of Liberation of 1521-1523, this is as recent as I could think of actually! The fall of the USSR lends a great look into many countries' beginnings (or re-beginnings) as independent nations, despite minimal cultural differences (similar to Spain vs Catalonia).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#683

Post by alexandrerond »

Grustaf wrote: post #629
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

No matter what you think Europe needs, how would you argue that the Catalonians shouldn't have a right to self determination? If, for the sake of argument, a clear majority of them want to be (fully) sovereign from Spain, do you think Madrid has a right to suppress that? And one step up, do you think Brussels has? Do you have the same opinion about Kosovo?

> If, for the sake of argument, a clear majority of them want to be (fully) sovereign from Spain

If this is the case, then they should have the right. That's my opinion.

But I'm also forced to acknowledge that there are other people with other opinions, that there's a shitty but standing legal system and that the current authorities and judges seem to not share the same view at the moment.

So engaging in "treason" is the fastest, but maybe not the best approach to self-determination in the long term.

It's also my opinion that self-determination does not and will not really solve the problems people face in their lives, but again, if they want to split, I wish they could do it orderly and smoothly.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#684

Post by Grustaf »

alehul wrote: post #676
Grustaf wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture What makes you say that? Estonia is a protestant country of Finnic people speaking a Finno-Ugric language that is completely unrelated to even the Indo-European language family. Soviet, like Russia now, was a Eurasian empire mostly made up of Orthodox Slavs speaking a Slavic language. These are quite distinct cultures, at least as different as Germany and Franc…

You're right that Estonia was not the best possible example in terms of lingual similarity, and Lithuania would've served the purpose better in terms of recent history. Sweden and Denmark are a great choice, but I think the Swedish War of Liberation is too far back in history to be acknowledged as a relevant example today. I was mostly attempting to point out our inconsistencies in supporting the independence of so m…

You mean when Sweden left the Kalmar Union? I was just talking about the similarity of cultures actually, the brief period, one year?, when the Danish king ruled Sweden was just a blip...

But I agree about inconsistency. Just because politicians bring up ethical reasons for supporting some issue doesn’t mean that is the actual reason. Human rights abuses are only a problem when Russia or Iran commit them, not Saudi.

And I’m sorry but I don’t think Lithuania is a good example either, it’s a Catholic Baltic state with an imperial past of its own. Slightly more Russian perhaps than Estonia, but not by much.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#685

Post by hutzlibu »

tirant wrote: post #661
hutzlibu wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know the history of spain and the civil war? Even if not, don't you think it makes a difference for an area under spanish fascist rule, if most of the residents are pro spanish or if they are against it??

I know the history of Spain really well, being Catalan and with part of my ancestors assessinated by Franco's regime. Being pro-Spanish did not mean shit for Franco and the fascist regime. The rebelled against a perfectly pro-Spanish republican government. The assassinated millions of socialist, communist, anarchist who were pro Spanish. Big majority of catalans were also pro Spanish and suffered prosecution. But the…

"They supported a plural, multinational Spain, where all national and regional feelings were respected and supported."

With pro-spanish I did not meant the "multinational Spain" variant. More pro spanish nation.

(And I also think that "anarchist who were pro Spanish" ... were a pretty rare type of anarchists. Unless you only meant pro spanish language. But that is pobably nitpicking, which I feel is a bit inappropriate in this topic)

So I still would think, that in general a spanish fascist would treat a spanish republican a bit better, than a catalan anarchist - but I don't think I should try to teach you your history.

So I just stop and say, that I am very sorry for your family, as well.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#686

Post by alexandrerond »

alehul wrote: post #575
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU. I presume it was also a 'sad day for Europe' when 'nationalism prevailed' and the Baltic states gained independence from the Soviet Union? Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture, including a lan…

> Their ties to Spain are a result of a fascist dictator who managed to largely avoid WWII and continue his reign until he died of natural causes, with his formed empire still intact.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the last Catalonian independence attempt was crushed by the left Republican government before Franco showed up.

It's so tiring to go back all the time to the historical arguments... there are no borders who have stayed the same through history. You can use the exact same argument to justify why Catalonia should be part of Spain and why it should not.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#687

Post by pvaldes »

hutzlibu wrote: post #669
pvaldes wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know very well the history of my family, yes. Please, take a look to this: http://mapadefosas.mjusticia.es/exovi_externo/CargarMapaFosa...

Well, then I deeply apologize. My first reaction to your post was also thinking that you had emotional ties to it, but then I assumed you were just some internet guy with shallow knowledge. Well, wrong. I am the guy with shallow knowledge compared to you. Anyway, I still want to state, that I did not said that the catalans suffered the most, just "more than other areas". But I don't think I should say more on this. I…

Don't be sorry. At least my grandpa survived his death penalty and was finally released from jail, broken but alive, thus allowing my mother, (and therefore me and my brothers) a chance to born. It was close. Other people weren't so fortunate.

All this excited children in the streets acting like if they were playing Grand Thief Auto in their room, waiting hopeful for the arrival of their shiny independence war, are totally clueless about the real meaning of the term

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#688

Post by alexandrerond »

turc1656 wrote: post #565
alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Let's be real for a minute. The reason this is as large of an issue is the same reason that there are very, very few peaceful secessions throughout history. Even then, "peaceful" is relative - there may not be full on war, but there are always "incidents". That reason is simple - there is no way to legally split from Spain. Things are specifically designed this way to always provide the ruling faction with the abilit…

> certainly not some small minority that is somehow manipulating parliament.

The Catalan nationalist parties won the elections. Everyone knows that they are a LOT of people (majority in most regions). There was no need send the police, unless you seek to look strong to your followers. Just like there was no need to declare the independence right now. Each party is forcing the other to the worst possible options.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#689

Post by [deleted] »

thecrazyone wrote: post #648
jasode wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…

On tangential note, California should secede from US.

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#690

Post by kgwgk »

alehul wrote: post #682
kgwgk wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does “recent past” mean for you? Estonia became independent in 1920 (or 1918 if you count since the beginning of the war of independence) and was independent until the Soviet occupation in 1940.

Considering another relevant example posted elsewhere in this thread was the Swedish War of Liberation of 1521-1523, this is as recent as I could think of actually! The fall of the USSR lends a great look into many countries' beginnings (or re-beginnings) as independent nations, despite minimal cultural differences (similar to Spain vs Catalonia).

Do you really think the republics in the USSR had only minimal cultural differences? By the way, according to the 1977 Constitution of the USSR the republics had the right to secede (of course, they didn't really have it in practice... until it happened).
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