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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#671

Post by pdimitar »

pjmlp wrote: post #664
pdimitar wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it. I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it. Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one. I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in th…

Not really, I tend to avoid computer appliances, other than phones and tablets. I certainly am not paying 800 euros for a travel laptop, when a 350 euros Asus 1215B, that could be upgraded, was able to survive about a decade, with 8GB in 2011!

How is its fan noise?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#672

Post by theshrike79 »

marssaxman wrote: post #47
Aurornis wrote: post #18

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499…

> if someone isn't choosing by OS first. What a surprising idea! I have always and only ever chosen by OS first. Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run?

I'm not exactly living paycheck to paycheck and I support FOSS where I can.

But it's really hard to justify the cost of a Framework compared to a similarly priced Macbook =(

Yes, the Framework is updateable and repairable, but on the other hand I'm regularly daily driving 4-5 year old Macbooks with zero issues. Especially when the M-series dropped, the competition is just so far behind. Even more so when considering the ability to run local LLMs on a non-gaming laptop.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#673

Post by pdimitar »

ryukoposting wrote: post #219
robspairpears wrote: post #87

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases. So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of m…

I've never bought a new laptop in my life, and I have a Framework 13 Pro on preorder because it's the only new laptop I will ever need to buy. When I did my research, I found that Framework costs more than the competition across the entire stack, but it's by a fixed amount, $150 give or take. That's maybe a 7% premium for a high-end laptop, but a 30% premium at the low end. Obviously the price gap vs a Neo is even wi…

That's completely fair and that would be my process exactly, if not for one thing -- fan noise.

I really _hate_ laptop fan noises. That's why a Macbook Neo will win for me when I get to travel more. Hopefully the world will produce a good competition for it in the meantime.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#674

Post by AshamedCaptain »

margalabargala wrote: post #598
bel8 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not That's a very low bar to clear

Yes, which makes the comment claiming the neo doesn't clear it all the more egregious.

I have been rocking _smaller_ tablet PCs with better reparability score than the Neo in iFixit since practically the 2010s. My current one is a 10/10 from HP. This to say nothing about upgradability.

The Neo doesn't clear the bar. It just barely improves over recent macbooks, which is next to nothing. Specially to someone comparing to the Framework!

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#675

Post by tracker1 »

argee wrote: post #497
tracker1 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe... While less than perfect, I think even moving to shared browser runtimes like Tauri and similar are a boost over Electron. Not to mention shifting backend work to Rust over JS/TS. There's a lot of performance on the table to gain without even dramatically changing most of the application UI/UX.

That’s a marketing myth. https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/5889

Not so much a myth as understanding that shared libraries only really benefit resource use at runtime with multiple apps using them. Which depends on the apps you use.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#676

Post by tvshtr »

starkparker wrote: post #169
hadlock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

my partner is a non-tech woodworker and fucking brutal on hardware, so she was addicted to Chromebooks. they cost nearly nothing, they came in weird small form factors, and they had a knack for lasting forever. she had a day job that required her to use an older Mac and it was a relative pain in her ass that put her off Macs at home. I had a pile of retired laptops and kept trying to find one that would sway her off…

Yup, people tend to focus on the upgradability aspect and totally miss the repairability one. My own story is as follows: my panther had an ASUS laptop and extrapolating from previous experiences expected the laptop to function on AC when the battery dies. NO SUCH LUCK! Since it's a hybrid usb-c powered hardware it needed a battery to power up. The process of replacement was so tedious and expensive that we decided to buy the Framework instead. Fool me once...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#677

Post by throwaway2037 »

akkartik wrote: post #66
SoftTalker wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't watch the video but isn't the main selling point of the Framework line (from their website) "Designed for easy customization, upgrades, and repairs." I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste.

It's actually not bad. The rhetoric has had an effect over the years. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...

I watched some of their (iFixIt) recent videos about Framework laptops, Mac Neo, and Lenovo laptops. What I love about them: They are not haters. They just want companies to get meaningfully and incrementally better at repair. 10/10 rating does not mean perfection -- it means "great" (very repairable). In a modern world of so much unnecessary manufactured drama on social media (including YouTube), it is nice to see a high quality company batting away the opportunity for unnecessary manufactured! The most recent Lenovo laptops have a bunch of minor complaints -- still they got 10/10.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#678

Post by throwaway2037 »

helterskelter wrote: post #77
hadlock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do. I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Lit…

I had to re-read your post to digest this term: "F13". I hope it becomes part of our dialect here at HN. I have nothing but good wishes and will for Framework Computer company. It seems like they are trying to climb an impossible hill. It is so much fun watching them hit each local maxima.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#679

Post by throwaway2037 »

starkparker wrote: post #169
hadlock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

my partner is a non-tech woodworker and fucking brutal on hardware, so she was addicted to Chromebooks. they cost nearly nothing, they came in weird small form factors, and they had a knack for lasting forever. she had a day job that required her to use an older Mac and it was a relative pain in her ass that put her off Macs at home. I had a pile of retired laptops and kept trying to find one that would sway her off…

    > my partner is a non-tech woodworker
Ok, first, some HN humor: Uhh... that is like catnip for HN dudes (and dudettes?).

Can I ask a stupid question? (No trolling here.) Does she use the Chromebooks as part of her work in the wood shop? Or is she a big rough/clumsy with her laptops... so ultra-tough Chromebooks are a good fit for her "personal working style"?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#680

Post by makeitdouble »

pdimitar wrote: post #670
makeitdouble wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. I'm still fascinated by how people throw these praises around with no justifications what so ever. Even staying within Apple lineups, as a thought experiment, do you think iPad Pro have inferior hardware ? they sure can't beat MacBooks, right ?

Point me at a laptop as small and quiet. Hell, let's forget weight. I'll gladly lug around 2.5kg machine if it almost never turns its fan on and is as compact. Actually let's not care about compactness either. Can go up to 17". Just show me a truly quiet laptop. You are misjudging me here. I'm moving back to Linux after using Macs for 7 years. My desktop Mac is soon going to be history. macOS makes too many choices f…

We could do the same exercise in reverse:

Point me at a laptop with a touch and pen support and detachable keyboard, within the 13" range and 260+ppi resolution, that can virtually run modern software and mid-tier games at workable speeds.

That's the bar my personal laptop clears, and no mac does. Should I be claiming that it has unbeatable hardware ?

PS: We've been in this for a very long time. Even during the PowerPC days, it was a meme to take a mac, adjust for exactly the same hardware specs and tout that the mac was unbeatable for the price. Thing is, having different hardware specs and tradeoffs is exactly the point of the PC market. I still feel great for the people that exactly fit the "one size fits all" offering, but getting a machine that perfectly fits one's needs is extremely valuable IMHO.

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