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Can we have the day off?

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Re: Can we have the day off?

#671

Post by duskdozer »

whatshisface wrote: post #100
cattown wrote: post #33

This article is kind of playful, but I think there’s a serious point here that’s not discussed enough. We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive. I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should…

Working out why the workweek is 5 days, non-negotiably, even if you'd be willing to be paid less in proportion, comes down to realizing that it's being maximized subject to the constraint that everybody would flip out if it was 6, and then working out why it's being maximized. What it's telling you is that a company would rather have 4 people working 5 days a week than 5 people working 4 days a week. The reason for t…

It is also incentivized because a demand for 25% more employees (assuming constant person-days) shifts power to labor from employers.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#672

Post by wallst07 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #648
ixtli wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI without many other anti-capitalist reforms is just a subsidy paid directly to your landlord.

We don't want anti-capitalist reforms. Perhaps reforms like those we use in Denmark would make sense? We're ranked higher than the U.S. in ease of business. We love capitalism here. But we also have high taxes, universal healthcare, and great social safety nets. It allows us to lean into the great parts of capitalism while also protecting those for whom capitalism isn't working so well. It's a great compromise withou…

[dead]

Re: Can we have the day off?

#673

Post by tasuki »

fg137 wrote: post #296

I never understand why software engineers are so excited about AI as a whole. If you are excited about the technology, sure. But if you are excited about the increase in productivity, unless you are a manager, I don't really understand it. Like, why? You are not working one hour less than before. If anything, it's more likely you'll get laid off and have trouble finding your next job.

Some things are just exciting, you know? Not everything is about maximizing one's employment opportunities...

Re: Can we have the day off?

#674

Post by tasuki »

dalyons wrote: post #480
OneOffAsk wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a natural desire for people to want to make things. Most of the time it’s physical: homes, crafts, woodworking. But for a few of us it’s ok for it to be non physical. Actually, that’s part of the allure of programming: you don’t need much more than a computer and some thinking to build incredibly intricate… things. AI is like a brand new power tool. It’s fun to use because you can build faster. I felt a sense…

I think you’re missing the op’s point. Yes it’s fun but you don’t personally get any of the gains. Just more work

I think you're missing the point. The person you replied to wrote:

> a natural desire for people to want to make things

... and all you can think of is "gains"?

Re: Can we have the day off?

#675

Post by Timon3 »

Aurornis wrote: post #552
tstrimple wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a naive view. Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. If they think they can hire someone “equivalent” according to HR for less money they will often do so. Actual contribution means nothing unless you’re willing to walk away. I’ve literally seen an intern with less than one year of experience when hired into a company where a senior architect who has been at the same firm for 16…

> Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with. Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil. This is literally just how a market works. A lot of people forget that the job market is a market. Or they wish it wasn't a market and they could block out competition for themselves so companies had to pay them more (at the expense…

This might be fair if the rules of the market were static, but companies are actively using their power and influence to affect the market rules so they can get away with paying workers less and less - that's not to mention collusion and corruption.

Just because this has been normalized doesn't mean it's not evil. If a healthcare company introduces processes that deny people life-saving interventions just to funnel more money to their shareholders, that company and its leadership are thoroughly evil.

I'd also like to add that I often pay more for things than I could get away with. I try to prefer locally owned businesses when possible, and if they have fair prices and give me good advice I often pay a bit extra (essentially a "tip" for the business) to support them.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#676

Post by Timwi »

EliRivers wrote: post #590
theptip wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s pretty naive to ask your employer for a day off. As experienced by companies, the market is more competitive than ever. Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch. It’s a Prisoner’s Dilemma. The only way to get this outcome is to coordinate at a level higher than individual market participants. In other words, get your government to i…

Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch. Is this true? There are a lot of low-productivity and zombie companies trudging through year after year.

Yeah, they're all taking a gamble and hoping that they, not their peers, will be the lucky ones with the breakthrough.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#677

Post by srdjanr »

dalyons wrote: post #480
OneOffAsk wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a natural desire for people to want to make things. Most of the time it’s physical: homes, crafts, woodworking. But for a few of us it’s ok for it to be non physical. Actually, that’s part of the allure of programming: you don’t need much more than a computer and some thinking to build incredibly intricate… things. AI is like a brand new power tool. It’s fun to use because you can build faster. I felt a sense…

I think you’re missing the op’s point. Yes it’s fun but you don’t personally get any of the gains. Just more work

Well fun can be the gain

Re: Can we have the day off?

#678

Post by duskdozer »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #218
apt-apt-apt-apt wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright guys, I'm running for president. 4 day work weeks (8 hours each) for employees or prison.

You have my vote. Work to live, don’t live to work. ~90% of Iceland is on a 35-36 hours work week, seems to work fine. Remote work was also skeptically thought of up until a global pandemic forced it, and while there has been some retreat, 20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still. Just need a catalyst to challenge norms and rigid mental models. https://autonomy.work/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ICELAND_4DW…

>20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still

That's a pretty abysmal number considering the number who do want remote work and its productivity improvements and its overall lower waste. I'm surprised it's so low.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#679

Post by tasuki »

NietTim wrote: post #627
fg137 wrote: post #296

I never understand why software engineers are so excited about AI as a whole. If you are excited about the technology, sure. But if you are excited about the increase in productivity, unless you are a manager, I don't really understand it. Like, why? You are not working one hour less than before. If anything, it's more likely you'll get laid off and have trouble finding your next job.

I've never had this much fun at work. There was nothing more that I disliked in my job than months long projects with everything already planned out in advance. It made work extremely predictable and boring, the project was already fully thought out, all that needed to be done was the boring bit of writing all the code that you already know how to write, all the fun of exploring different ideas and implementation dir…

People sometimes mention this, but I have a hard time relating.

The amount of code you produce in months of just typing must be enormous, no?

To me it seems no matter the plan there's many unplanned things that I need to handle, and that's where the time is spent. I never had a day in my career where I knew exactly what had to be done and just spent it typing...

Re: Can we have the day off?

#680

Post by Timon3 »

Aurornis wrote: post #239
majormajor wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we really so sure that reducing working hours can't, itself, lead to improved economic health? Such as by increasing distribution of income flows, and increasing time available for economic consumption? One of the greatest tricks of the modern era in the US has been to convince everyone that making the slice of pie bigger for the richest people is necessary to grow the economy.

> and increasing time available for economic consumption? Where is that additional money going to come from? I think you’re missing some important factors in your analysis.

1. Not everyone is spending all their "spending money" every month, and 2. more free time allows people to get more value for their money (e.g. by comparing more alternative options).
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