Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

xda-developers.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

671–680 of 694 posts

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#671

Post by account42 »

KolibriFly wrote: post #436
trashface wrote: post #109

Feels like there is some real momentum on linux gaming now. I mostly play older games but I've gotten most of them working acceptably in proton on my old system 76 laptop (oryp5, with a nvidia 2060; ~7 years old). The laptop actually has plenty of power for the games I play, but I underclock to keep the heat/fan speeds down (been doing the same on the win10 install on the same system), still getting acceptable framer…

This is exactly why Proton feels like the pragmatic path. Native ports are nice in theory, but PC games are rarely just one clean executable anymore

Not the ideal path though - that's still source ports.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#672

Post by account42 »

GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #604
eigenspace wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that "native" is much more of a state of mind than a clear delineation anyways. Among many game developer studios, the Steamdeck is increasingly becoming the defacto low-spec hardware target. Running their game on a Steamdeck becomes a core part of the QA process, because there's a few million Steamdecks out there actively playing games, and if your game runs on a Steamdeck you basically know it'll also run…

Disagree. The word "native" in a software execution context has a very specific meaning—it means that the software is running on the target hardware with no emulation, translation layer or modification by any middleware. Games running through Proton/WINE will never be native, by definition.

I'm not super sold on Wine/Proton being the solution to Linux gaming as it still leaves Microsoft in control of the future, but the distinction is quite murky. A lot of "native" ports also use translation layers internally to various degrees.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#673

Post by account42 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #509
trashface wrote: post #109

Feels like there is some real momentum on linux gaming now. I mostly play older games but I've gotten most of them working acceptably in proton on my old system 76 laptop (oryp5, with a nvidia 2060; ~7 years old). The laptop actually has plenty of power for the games I play, but I underclock to keep the heat/fan speeds down (been doing the same on the win10 install on the same system), still getting acceptable framer…

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

Well if you want an operating system you don't control and that actively works against you then you already have Windows...

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#674

Post by account42 »

skydhash wrote: post #531
Gareth321 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

> 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Ultimately, you can’t trust the user computer unless you go for the secure boot things backed by a hardware key. I’m sure there are multiple ways to bypass anti-cheats on Windows. > 2. Immutability[…] It's distributing games to 12 different distros with a hundreds different configurations and a thousand customisations Does it really matter? You can always ship a statica…

> Ultimately, you can’t trust the user computer unless you go for the secure boot things backed by a hardware key. I’m sure there are multiple ways to bypass anti-cheats on Windows.

Even that will not protect you from hardware cheats.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#675

Post by account42 »

kbolino wrote: post #612
skydhash wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t both wayland and X11 protocols? Sure there are toolkits, but they’re not hard requirements (based on the little I know).

I also don't know a whole lot, but yes, they both are ultimately implemented as families of client-server protocols over Unix domain sockets (X11 also supports TCP). Inasmuch as you are content with targeting a single version-set of those protocols, then that is sufficient to enable static compilation. However, the real issue I'm getting at is the ability to run the same statically compiled binary many years later. T…

X11 and Wayland are not the problem as those do indeed have stable binary interfaces.

Most games however need GPU access and that is only possible by either dynamically loading libraries or shipping the code for all the hardware you want to support with your binary (not an option).

That said, you don't really need a fully static binary but "just" target the oldest Glibc you want to support and minimize your imports as much as possible to avoid any unexpected compatibility problems. I put "just" in quotes because the toolchains on Linux don't make that easy if you also want modern programming language support, but it is viable.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#676

Post by account42 »

LazyGooze wrote: post #515
Gareth321 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

the minute linux solves kernel level anti-cheat is the minute it wins the OS war, tons of friends have only windows on their PCs because of valorant or other multiplayer online game that uses anticheat.

Is it really winning if you shoot your own foot to do it?

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#677

Post by account42 »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #561
simonask wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Linux" doesn't need to do anything here. What's missing is for anticheat vendors to develop kernel modules for Linux in addition to their Windows drivers. I personally hope they never do, because present day anticheat systems are literally closed-source rootkits. You should not let that software onto any computer you own. But then I don't really have a horse in the race, because I don't find competitive gaming with…

> "Linux" doesn't need to do anything here. What's missing is for anticheat vendors to develop kernel modules for Linux in addition to their Windows drivers. With what stable module ABI like Windows has? There isn't one. You can build a module that targets the current kernel Ubuntu 24.04 is using, but that module won't load on 26.04, let alone a completely different distro like Fedora. eBPF /might/ help, but one coul…

> You can build a module that targets the current kernel Ubuntu 24.04 is using, but that module won't load on 26.04, let alone a completely different distro like Fedora.

The notion that there is a meaningful difference between distros here only betrays your lack of knowledge.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#678

Post by account42 »

LanceH wrote: post #559
simonask wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Linux" doesn't need to do anything here. What's missing is for anticheat vendors to develop kernel modules for Linux in addition to their Windows drivers. I personally hope they never do, because present day anticheat systems are literally closed-source rootkits. You should not let that software onto any computer you own. But then I don't really have a horse in the race, because I don't find competitive gaming with…

You let the people run their own servers and kick cheaters. That's one solution which has actively been taken away over the years.

Yes but then how do you get people to buy your microtransactions.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#679

Post by account42 »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #647
isityettime wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Windows power users arrive on Linux and think they know what they're doing, when in reality they don't know up from down. Very basic things like norms about user confirmation and warnings are frequent stumbling blocks.¹ Windows power users expect their habits and instincts to be right and treat the system as broken wherever they aren't. After all, they "know computers"! So when one of them hits a…

Yes. And Linux power users are also terrible at Windows. All the operating systems are very different but also largely the same. There are a ton of dumb little things you need to learn for each of them. It’s annoying. Most people don’t spend the time and just go back to what they and works. I don’t think your comment is particularly insightful or interesting. It’s bias way yonder too overwhelming.

The insight is that power users for another OS are a bad measure how good an OS is because power users are inherently specialized and thus often have more difficulty using a different system.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#680

Post by account42 »

wtetzner wrote: post #363
dragontamer wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never was fair to play vs computers in reaction games or skill games. IE: Quakebots and Fighting games have perfect reaction times and perfect combos. They can simply block perfectly and counter attack perfectly and never drop a combo. You act like cheating is new to video games?? -------- We never wanted bot in these games. Still don't want them today, and it's a big reason that playing on public boxes (ex: at an…

> You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.

I generally agree with this conclusion but there are a class of cheats that don't just improve the player's speed/aim/reaction time/etc but actually give you information that you shouldn't have but needs to be available locally to hide network latency like players on the other side of a wall.
Post reply on HN