Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

671–680 of 736 posts

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#671

Post by int_19h »

the_gipsy wrote: post #510
BSDobelix wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Go Ireland, great scheme. I wish we had it over here in the UK. It's a bad scheme, it divide's your population into people who have to create "wealth", and people who create "art". Yes creating art (or preserving rare potatoes[1]) should be supported by your government if it's not survivable in a capitalistic society, however having different rights because of your occupation is not better then the middle ages. [1]…

> people who have to create "wealth" most people don't "create wealth". They're forced to serve up half of their awake time to someone that is "wealthy", most likely through inheritance.

Most people do create wealth. That is exactly how those wealthy people become wealthy - by having someone create wealth for them, and then appropriating most of it.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#672

Post by int_19h »

k2enemy wrote: post #427
thomasz wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not _universal_. A truly UBI would be handing out a fixed basic income to everyone, irrespective of individual wealth, income or needs.

Is that even possible? Someone has to pay for it. If I'm rich and I get $40,000 a year from UBI, but my direct or indirect taxes go up by $60,000 in order to fund the program, am I really receiving UBI? At some point UBI has to involve transfers between income or wealth levels. The particulars of how the program is funded determines how progressive or regressive the policy is in net.

Yes, you're receiving UBI in that scenario.

The whole point is that paying everyone a fixed $X amount regardless of anything else is extremely easy to manage, so you can drop all the bureaucracy that builds up around welfare. But, yes, in practice it also acts as a progressive income tax of sorts even with an otherwise flat tax rate (which allows for further simplification) because delta between UBI check and taxes is going to gradually decrease as income rises and eventually becomes negative.

That said even with just personal income tax it's viable. I once crunched the numbers on what it'd take to have everyone in US receive the current federal min wage as UBI payment, assuming a flat surface tax (i.e. relying solely on that UBI check to make it progressive), and it was somewhere in the ballpark of 50%.

Of course, you can get there much easier if you go for the sacred cows such as capital gains. Raising that to the same level as regular income alone would bring a lot of tax revenue.

We could also start taxing AI, since it is (or at least positioned by those deploying it) the immediate cause why so many people are going to find themselves out of jobs.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#673

Post by erxam »

thepaulmcbride wrote: post #229

It's wild to me how many people in the comments see any form of government doing anything as shady. It is doubly wild to me that using public funds to create art is seen as a bad thing.

You have to remember this is a site geared towards American techbros. Americans don't know what culture even means, much less why it's important. Cultural creations to Americans are shit like burger or Coke ads.

It's even worse for techbros. All techbros ever read are self-help books and Nick Land's meth-fueled ramblings. Peter Thiel is a head honcho techbro because he was able to finish The Lord of the Rings.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#674

Post by erxam »

erxam wrote: post #673
thepaulmcbride wrote: post #229

It's wild to me how many people in the comments see any form of government doing anything as shady. It is doubly wild to me that using public funds to create art is seen as a bad thing.

You have to remember this is a site geared towards American techbros. Americans don't know what culture even means, much less why it's important. Cultural creations to Americans are shit like burger or Coke ads. It's even worse for techbros. All techbros ever read are self-help books and Nick Land's meth-fueled ramblings. Peter Thiel is a head honcho techbro because he was able to finish The Lord of the Rings.

You ask an American what's the last painting he saw and what he thought about it and he'll bring up whatever random shit some vastly-underpaid and over-exploited immigrant will have been made to plaster over a McDonald's wall.

The "intellectual" Americans will bring up Thomas Kinkade and how his work embodies the true nature of what American society should be all about. His pieces make them long for the good old past where non-whites knew their place and segregation was a godly law.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#675

Post by angiolillo »

philipallstar wrote: post #611
angiolillo wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you going to force artists to make the specific art that the community is in need of, or can they just do nothing? My understanding is that the Irish scheme doesn't force any specific work for the three year period, though I'd expect any artist who takes a three year, ~$60k grant and uses it to do literally nothing may find it hard get a grant in the future, potentially ending their art career. Still, I wouldn'…

The economic question will be whether the Irish taxpayer gets enough value out of the art produced to warrant its total cost, including artist subsidy costs, administrative cost, etc etc.

Note that my response above was solely responding to the question of how to handle freeloaders.

Of course the more fundamental question is whether the whole scheme is even worthwhile. Clearly the Irish government believes that their trial in 2022 demonstrated a positive financial return, but my guess it that it will take decades before we can truly answer this question.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#676

Post by Ekaros »

qsera wrote: post #670
Ekaros wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carpet installer? Most likely handy enough for building shelter and in general manual labour.

Good for you! You will live long, but I will have more fun.

Dying the next day? Bold choice. But you do you.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#677

Post by nandomrumber »

eucyclos wrote: post #395
nandomrumber wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like to imagine what they could have done had they been at leisure to work and perform all day. Probably nothing. The idle rich and trust fund kids aren’t exactly know for producing, well, anything of value, really. Getting paid to sit around all day and do fuck-all isn’t exactly character building.

The majority of great works created by the ruling classes of Athens or London at the height of both cultures ascendency is a major counterexample. Maybe we just had bad luck as to today's ruling class.

What does the past have to do with the present quagmire we find ourselves in?

Surely no one would intentionally suggest we pay people to sit around with the hope they produce something anyone will be bothered to read (or whatever) in 2000 years.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#678

Post by 9rx »

parineum wrote: post #663
9rx wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Built in 1954" doesn't sound like new construction. Of course you can buy used houses at a fraction of the cost. That's nothing new. Maybe you missed it, but the discussion here about building new to make homes more affordable.

> building new to make homes more affordable No need to build new, a plethora of affordable homes are available.

If one was freely able to move about the entire world you may have a point. Especially given current events, I am not sure the country in which that house is located would take kindly to many of us moving there. In a more practical reality you're not going to find anything for anywhere close to that price even in the middle of nowhere, never mind somewhere where everyone wants to live. That is where earlier comments suggest building more housing would help.

Except it is not clear who can afford new construction either. It is even more expensive.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#679

Post by mantas »

bell-cot wrote: post #557
mantas wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a problem too. Offensive art is art too. I'd even argue that offensive art in many cases is better than non-offensive one. But yes, I guess at best „politically correct offensive“ artists will get approved.

A problem for ideological purists, and an opportunity for performative offenders. Ordinary folks understand the whole "he who pays the piper" thing, and that "democracy" means the voters can choose to support the arts...or not .

It brings another problem that this may become sort of hush money government-at-the-time friendly artists.

Here it's already a problem for culture-ministry-financed projects. When some artists get funding, others don't... And then some people cry foul that it's because they crossed ways with some politician. Wether that's true or not, when arts funding and politics go together, it's a recipe for some sour FB posts.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#680

Post by snayan »

9rx wrote: post #661
parineum wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't afford a 175k house on a software engineer salary? https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3024-N-Vermont-Ave-Oklaho...

"Built in 1954" doesn't sound like new construction. Of course you can buy used houses at a fraction of the cost. That's nothing new. Maybe you missed it, but the discussion here about building new to make homes more affordable.

It's not like the newly built homes are typically the most affordable. It causes a ripple effect as those that can afford it upgrade their housing.

https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1314...

Post reply on HN