I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#671

Post by kaba0 » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #272

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're a…

Noone is bothered by the people that simply don’t care about or can’t switch. People are bothered about “why rediscover the wheel when x11 works fine, and also this whole protocol is shit because no screenshot blahblah“.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#672

Post by ddingus » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

cycloptic wrote: post #602

ddingus wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems have crept up into new hardware, and depending on the product, "old" may be more than a decade, because users do not need new hardware and increasing numbers of them know that. Memory performance is not too big of a deal, IMHO given the last decade of hardware, but stability is. Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally. I have seen 4 figure software get replaced b…

That's great when the feature set you're talking about has already been validated by the market. When it's not, it's a mistake to focus on that. I believe we call that "premature optimization."

Many will not evaluate software that is unstable, because that is a clear sign the whole effort is not yet suitable for any meaningful time investment.

Play it how you will, of course. I will pass hard personally. Lack of stability is very high on my qualification list.

To be blunt, where it exists there are other priority problems.

One may just be flashy speed and other sizzle done at the general expense of the solution being robust.

May only take an event or two needed to cancel out potential gains from those things. Turn that crank a time or two and many will just get back to work.

An attempt or two again? Many will ignore the solution and or have adopted something else.

Net result? The team that did not make stability a priority likely did a lot of market building for the ones who did.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#673

Post by jcelerier » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

tlamponi wrote: post #418

pmlnr wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... ... Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?

The commonly heard demand is to start working on a common ground, like AMD and Intel seems to be able just fine. What's your proposal? Requiring paid and free-time spending software developer to bent backward and maintain some complex parallel implementation for EGL-Streams just because NVIDIA always want to be a special snowflake? Even seemingly putting in extra effort to be a PITA for all involved and produce as mu…

EGLStreams is not only an Nvidia thing though. For instance Google provides an implementation of it (as it's you know, an actual Khronos standard unlike GBM if I'm not mistaken) on ANGLE on windows. While GBM is purely a Linux thing.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#674

Post by zamadatix » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

ChiefOBrien wrote: post #646

zamadatix wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, if a bunch of X11 devs were tired enough of X11 they decided to drop it for working on Wayland I'm not upset at them for working on what they want to work on rather than what I want them to work on. I'll gladly take reinventing the wheel every 30 years over people dropping out altogether, though if they want to that's fine it's their own time and energy. If they did it for their own reasons instead of the communi…

It's not just wayland. For every single thing you can do on linux there exists several hundred different implementations/projects with the same goal of do that thing, and it has led to bad cohesion between system components. Even Microsoft couldn't figure out how to drop Win32 and introduce other safer environments without alienating everyone. How can we expect Linux to survive and become better if we treat everythin…

I mean things have kept on up until this point I see no point in worrying about it falling apart tomorrow for as long as some people are still hacking at things things'll keep getting hacked at. If it ever does stop chugging along at some point it's unfortunate but not something you were owed by some developer yet didn't get. On the other hand if new things keep coming out you can use for free that's great.

Maybe something will drop off but you'll want to come in and support it while you find it worthwhile, that's all anyone else is doing too.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#675

Post by Too » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

Fellshard wrote: post #440

DCKing wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree here, if you could make a reasonable case that the problems trace back the protocol. But my point here is that practically all issues at hand happen outside of what Wayland is used for. Wayland is a display protocol. Practically all of the pain people are experiencing has nothing to do with how Gnome/KDE/Sway really display things differently. The pain everybody experiences is that the realization that…

So there's a terminology conflation issue, then: people attacking Wayland proper for issues that are actually about the 'Wayland ecosystem'. I could see that generating increasing problems if there is no observable gameplan for or encouragement to develop those pieces people have come to expect of a full desktop stack. Mind that I have no formed opinion of Wayland myself, having not used it. Trying to deduce probable…

It's funny that in the case of systemd both the scenario and hence also the complaints were the complete opposite. Namely that systemd does everything, that in an idealistic world should have been decoupled from the core. (Which was also FUD since the internals actually are decoupled and work alone).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#676

Post by vetinari » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #601

vetinari wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewire=true` and that's Wayland's problem? Complain to Slack.

Support from popular apps absolutely is a problem for the platform. It might not be caused by them, but it is their problem. The user doesn't care who's fault it is, they're just going to go with the combination which works for them.

While I agree, that support for popular apps is a problem for platform, it doesn't mean that the platform will freeze for every snowflake app.

Apple for example regularly uses pressure from users on app authors to drive improvements in their platform. I don't see why Linux distributions should flip backward to keep their platform static, to the detriment of their long term development.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#677

Post by cycloptic » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #668

cycloptic wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what are the changes in the X11 server implementation you're talking about, but if they do indeed meet every single possible use case, then maybe someone can bring them over to Wayland? I'm sorry to say, but you have to acknowledge these are novelty applications and are really not driving progress right now, the main focus is in getting all the other applications to work. FYI there is some prior art for…

The X11 server changes would involve isolating clients by default, keeping them unaware of windows they did not create themselves... but allowing a whitelist of trusted clients that can see everything. This is inimical to the design principles of Wayland, whose security policy is to isolate all clients -- no exceptions, no escape. The 1984 Mac was largely a novelty, but it was one that demonstrated possibilities. The…

See the protocol extension I linked, there are absolutely exceptions and escapes that can fall back on the X11 way of doing things, and could even work with such X11 client isolation, but somebody would have to take the time to actually design and implement them and figure out how to get them to work with the security model used by the Wayland implementations. That is really the problem, it's only an implementation detail if you choose to do it by hacking the X server or you choose to make a new D-Bus API for it, or whatever. (i.e. there is no real reason XWayland needs extra extensions, it could call a D-Bus API if necessary, and that may even be desirable because the D-Bus API would be forward-compatible with newer Wayland applications)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#678

Post by Too » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #452

sokoloff wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on if the precise argument is closer to "Wayland, as experienced by everyday users, is shit" or "Wayland, as a Platonic ideal, is shit." People, especially people trying to work done on their computers, usually mean the former.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

Most users don't know the difference, to either of those statements. For them "the internet is broken".

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#679

Post by whatisthisfield » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

ddevault wrote: post #657

whatisthisfield wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe GNOME doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. GNOME works for almost everyone. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself.

Problems with GNOME are not a fantasy. Fantasy: Wayland does not support screen capture. This criticism is not legitimate. In actual truth, many Wayland compositors do support screen capture. Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations. This is a legitimate criticism of GNOME.

> Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations.

So GNOME doesn't support your precious use-case, but it works perfectly fine for most users without server-side decorations.

This doesn't make GNOME a "dumpster fire" to anyone except the "Wayland sucks!" crowd. Or more of a dumpster fire than, say, Sway: I'm positive one can find a feature that Sway doesn't support.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#680

Post by adkadskhj » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

__s wrote: post #200

adkadskhj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

As an aside, i hate GPUs on Linux. I'm running Blender and am in the market for a new PC build. The GPU is a huge source of confusion, due to Linux.

I see so many conflicting stories about how well AMD GPUs behave and perform on Linux. Some new, many old. Some even as extreme as "I bought a new AMD GPU and there are no drivers for it yet". Furthermore for Blender specifically AMD seems to get the short stick in performance.

Really leaves me confused as to what to buy. Just venting.