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Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

nytimes.com

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Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#671

Post by Gwypaas »

jacquesm wrote: post #535
rimliu wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country less than 80 people have died because of the COVID-19. One can argue that many more have died because of lack of access to the medical help. Not because the health care system was overwhelmed—far from it. But the access was very limited for the sake of "preparation" to deal with COVID.

You can argue that if you have access to the excess death figures for your country and then subtract back out the COVID-19 related deaths.

That's not a number we will know for decades. Saw an article in Sweden saying cancer detections are down 30% since the start, those undetected cancers are still developing. Unless they somehow can be caught a couple of years down the line they will sadly show up in the stats.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#672

Post by anang »

I think one aspect missing from the discussion of whether or not Sweden has done the right thing is just how much power a government has over its citizens.

In many cases I think the consensus in Sweden is that the government doesn’t have the right to keep people at home or force people to wear masks. The current government had to push to get legislation passed that allowed them to shut down primary schools and preschools, if needed.

When this is all said and done a lot of countries are going to have evaluate what all of this has meant for their democracies.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#673

Post by glofish »

latchkey wrote: post #398
glofish wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

none of that mask wearing is done at the scale and in the manner forced upon the population nurses change their masks all the time, nobody skis every day for eight hours, (FWIW the vast majority of people skiing don't wear masks over their mouths) > I wash my mask every time I use it and I rotate through several of them Like every hour? If not good luck with that, it is a pit of infection, a wet and warm substrate fo…

> nurses change their masks all the time, Do they? Are you a nurse? > nobody skis every day for eight hours, (FWIW the vast majority of people skiing don't wear masks over their mouths) Show me the statistics on that. > Like every hour? If not good luck with that, it is a pit of infection, a wet and warm substrate for bacteria and fungi. This is the most inane argument ever. You're basically saying those same exact b…

do yourself a service and read a real scientific paper on masks (pre-covid when people dared studying the negative effects) and read what happens on the inner side of a mask

in a nutshell stuff that would leave your body when you exhale will now be trapped on the inner side of your mask where it gets more and more concentrated, far more concentrated that what normally enters your lungs, the new stuff gets deposited on top the old, building it up to form a biofilm unlike any other part of the body

The microorganisms in the warm and wet environment breed, bacterial growth happens fast, doubling times can be 15 minutes. Within an hour you got yourself a bacterial colony right there in front of your mouth, every breath you take is filtered through that mucus laden bacterial colony

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#674

Post by robbiep »

mirimir wrote: post #529
robbiep wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not talking about Sweden, or the US, or Italy or the UK or France, But NZ, Vietnam, China and Australia (current flare up not withstanding) have pursued policies of lockdowns, contract tracing and heavy testing. Your proposal is more convoluted and relies on the imperfect information we have regarding susceptibilities (genetic susceptibilities) being correct, and being able to scale tests to a couple billion peop…

Sure, but it's likely that this won't be going away. So as soon as you relax lockdown, it may well come back. Unless there's a vaccine, which I'm not betting on. And then there's the chance of another zoonotic virus in a few years. Time will tell, but it may turn out that isolating vulnerable populations is the best long-term strategy.

You’re right that it’s a marathon not a race. But isolating the vulnerable (on a semi permenant Basis) is not easy or good for these people. With good testing infrastructure and contact tracing, we can minimise harm. We just have absolutely no definite idea who are those who are otherwise healthy who are going to end up hospitalised (say for my age group 30-40 males it currently looks like 1:500 will end up needing hospital support) and that’s even before you look at those who may do fine without hospital but still be carrying some serious consequences (ie original poster’s partner).

I for one would like to avoid getting this altogether

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#675

Post by cyrksoft »

eCa wrote: post #466
refurb wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but if you have a patient in a hospice with stage 4 lung cancer who dies and tests positive for Covid, does that go in the "Covid death" bucket? Honest question. I don't know the answer. I assume it's left up the physician's judgement?

In Sweden, yes. If you have tested positive within 30 days before dying, that is counted as a COVID-19 death.

No matter what the cause of death might be? So if I have a heart attack or die from cancer it counts as COVID-19?

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#676

Post by hvis »

b112 wrote: post #310
dvdplm wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what needed to be done, in Sweden and elsewhere. Pay staff triple and have them stay with the old folks and get everything delivered by externals with as little contact as possible. And no new admissions into the care homes.

Will you force them with a gun? To forgo all friends, family, comforts of home, and be literally trapped at work for months? Money doesn't just buy people. You'd essentially be drafting them.

I'm sure there will be plenty of other people willing to do this for 3x the pay.

No need to use a gun. Just a strict contract.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#677

Post by fomine3 »

claudeganon wrote: post #634
fomine3 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SK traced people in a bar by cellular location data and payment data without permit. I think it's not good for human rights.

The entire digital advertising industry is in greater violation of human rights, by this measure.

Tracing real individuals rather than "anonymized" statistics is significantly worse.

https://theconversation.com/tracing-homophobia-in-south-kore...

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#678

Post by claudeganon »

fomine3 wrote: post #677
claudeganon wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire digital advertising industry is in greater violation of human rights, by this measure.

Tracing real individuals rather than "anonymized" statistics is significantly worse. https://theconversation.com/tracing-homophobia-in-south-kore...

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Apologies for minimizing it before.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#679

Post by microtherion »

TMWNN wrote: post #660
microtherion wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even among people who do go on ventilators, there has apparently been a massive improvement in death rates: https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1280889429100552192

Yes, because they're now the ones who really needed mechanical respiration in the first place. The earlier "putting everyone with a harmed people by damaging healthy lungs via overoxygenation, and causing breathing dependence that doctors found difficult/impossible to wean from and all sorts of other complications, such as deep vein thrombosis. (This is what happened to Nick Cordero.)

Yes, but presumably (1) that harm affects everybody put on ventilators and (2) those who are now put on ventilators are the most desperate cases, so better ventilator triage as such does not seem to explain the improvement in ventilated death rates to me (even though it may explain improvement in overall death rates).

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#680

Post by mirimir »

robbiep wrote: post #674
mirimir wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it's likely that this won't be going away. So as soon as you relax lockdown, it may well come back. Unless there's a vaccine, which I'm not betting on. And then there's the chance of another zoonotic virus in a few years. Time will tell, but it may turn out that isolating vulnerable populations is the best long-term strategy.

You’re right that it’s a marathon not a race. But isolating the vulnerable (on a semi permenant Basis) is not easy or good for these people. With good testing infrastructure and contact tracing, we can minimise harm. We just have absolutely no definite idea who are those who are otherwise healthy who are going to end up hospitalised (say for my age group 30-40 males it currently looks like 1:500 will end up needing h…

Maybe more than marathon. I mean, the influenza strain that caused the 1918 pandemic is still circulating. Notwithstanding herd immunity through vaccination.
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