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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#671
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going to claim something as harmful as that, I want you to present clear evidence and peer reviewed studies to support your claims. What you were suggesting is that men are better than women at STEM. Simplg saying men have more testosterone doesn't cut it as evidence. (Besides, competitiveness doesn't make you a better researcher or employee, and can even be harmful in a team). I also need data for the num…

Start here [1]. This is delving dangerously close to flame war territory, so I probably won't respond further. But I'd like to point out that because of attitudes like this >If you are going to continue with this subtle sexist talk (implying men are better than women at STEM) You're probably unlikely to find too much on the subject - it's dangerous to academic careers to even propose research which could potentially…

Yeah, I can do that too.

■Women are smarter than men.

Once women started demanding equal rights, their IQ scores—which had lagged slightly behind men’s for decades—not only caught up with men’s, they surpassed them. According to IQ expert James Flynn, women now outscore men on intelligence tests in Europe, the US, Canada, and New Zealand—and women scored higher everywhere. “The complexity of the modern world is making our brains adapt and raising our IQ,” Flynn says. “But women’s have risen faster.”

■Women are more sensual than men.

According to researcher Israel Abramov of the City University of New York, women have a much more finely tuned ability to see slight variations in color than men do—which is why no straight men know what “mauve” or “taupe” are, but all women do. Women also have a superior sense of hearing and can distinguish between different scents far better than men can.

■Women are better at finding things than men.

Everyone knew that already, but it took psychology professor Diane Halpern to establish that women are better at navigating any given area by using landmarks, which makes them better at finding the lost keys and the missing remote control than men are.

■Women have better immune systems than men.

Estrogen gives women a better natural defense system against bacteria and viruses, according to a study at McGill University.

■Women tolerate pain better than men.

After all, they have to endure the equivalent of a bowling boll popping out of their vagina every time they give birth. But an episode of the show MythBusters proved that women can hold their hands in freezing water 19% longer than those crybaby men.

■Women have better memory than men.

A study at Aston University in England concluded that are better than men at remembering things two minutes, 15 minutes, and 24 hours after learning them. A Mayo Clinic study said that not only do women naturally have a better sense of memory than men, the gap widens with age.

■Women handle stress better than men.

Researchers at the University of Western Ontario concluded that women are far better than men at handling the stress of job interviews. Female brains also secrete more oxytocin—AKA the “cuddle hormone”—than male brains, making women calmer under fire than men are.

■Women are better at multitasking than men.

Multiple studies on multitasking have shown that women are far superior to men when it comes to handling multiple jobs at once. This must be why no man in world history has been able to simultaneously cook spaghetti, talk on the phone, and change a diaper.

■Women are better computer programmers than men.

This goes against every possible sexist stereotype, but a study at the University of Sussex found that girls created much more highly sophisticated coding systems when designing 3D games than boys did.

■Women make better doctors than men.

A Canadian study concluded that female doctors are much more likely than male doctors to adhere to physicians’ guidelines and to prescribe the right drugs for any given ailment.

■Women make better leaders than men.

The International Journal of Business Governance and Ethicspublished research concluding that female-led companies are more successful than ones led by males. A Pew Research poll found that the public agrees—women make fairer, more compassionate, and more trustworthy leaders than men do.

■Women are better drivers than men.

Studies show that male drivers are 77% more likely to die in car accidents than female drivers. A study of car accidents in New York City found that over five years, a staggering 80% of crashes where pedestrians were killed or seriously injured involved male drivers. This is why women pay lower car-insurance premiums.

■Women make better cops than men.

Authorities in Peru and Russia have begun switching over to female-dominated police forces because women’s superior psychological, communication, and negotiation skills make them better than men at handling volatile situations.

■Women make better students than men.

A joint study by the University of Georgia and Columbia University found that female students are better at acquiring and retaining knowledge than men. And Department of Education stats show that men are more likely than women to drop out of college.

■Women are better with money than men.

A study conducted by Barclays Wealth and Ledbury Research found that female investors experience a higher return on their investment than men do mainly because testosterone impels men to take unnecessary risks. A 2005 study by Merrill Lynch said that women also sell off their bad investments more quickly than men do.

Sources: http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1827162,0...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9401241/...

https://psychcentral.com/news/2013/01/05/why-girls-do-better...

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?...

https://newrepublic.com/article/121432/biology-professor-man...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/men...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/where-men-see-...

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/17/health/male-memory/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11640371/Why-women-...

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24645100

https://www.glamour.com/story/women-are-better-than-men

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/why-women-are-better-a...

You can claim there are differences in the physical body between men and women and no one will deny you that. However, it is just ridiculous to claim that me make better scientists than women without supporting your claim with rigurous data. Saying they might have better spatial isn't enough to make them much better scientists than women. Especially when there is evidence that women excel at learning and the highest IQ score ever recorded was that of a woman.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#672
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. An African American is much more likely to be a [edit: convicted] murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one.

> That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. If I were a parent I would be trying to mitigate the risk to my child. As I previously stated it is unfair but not unfounded. It cannot be sexism if it is based in fact. > An African American is much more likely to be a murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one. * I don't live in the US, I am from the UK.…

>> It cannot be sexism if it is based in fact.

As usual, it's not the facts that are in dispute here, but their interpretation.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#673
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woman give birth, men cannot breastfeed. That are indeed biology. Kids being picked up from school predominately by woman is a social arrangement, the kind we hopefully at least try to change if we consider there to be better options. But yes, many kinds of social arrangements come up naturally and woman taking care of house and kids seems to be one of them. Another one is "the powerful rule over the weak"... somethi…

> Kids being picked up from school predominately by woman is a social arrangement, the kind we hopefully at least try to change if we consider there to be better options. Define "Better". Why should we be trying to change it? Why should we be meddling with other people's lives? People aren't being harmed here. > But spending effort to keep pre-defined gender roles in check must be somehow bad? Both men and women at l…

>> People aren't being harmed here.

Well, the author is saying that she is considering giving up her career in reearch which she very much wants to pursue to have children because she can't find a way to reconcile the two.

That is clearly harmful and if it is affecting women at a large scale as the author suggests then it is definitely something that should be corrected.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which aspect of sexual dimorphism causes men to disrespect other men who care for children?

The competitive aspect? Males in plenty of species compete for status and low status males are getting chased away from the pack, so evidently genes are expressive enough to encode gender norms.

How is competition between males a consequence of sexual dimorphism?

Note that males in species with low sexual dimorphism compete for mates as fiercely as males in species with high sexual dimorphism.

Also note that the human species has very low sexual dimorphism relative to other species. E.g. our females are not many times the size of males, as they are in Black Widow spiders, our males don't have different colours of body coverage, like many species of birds do, etc etc. And of course many humans can easily pass for the other sex by changing their hair-style and clothing as evidenced by numerous cases in history where females passed as males by cutting their hair short and wearing pantaloons etc.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development... That sounds wonderful, but it's economically impossible, except for the rich. The cost would be near or exceed what most people clear working a job.

Yup. My wife and I were faced with the option of her contributing financially to the home and we pay for child care, or her being an at home mom. If she went to work, she would net $20 a week after paying for child care. Yeah, nope.

Considering you usually have better salary with 2-4 years extra experience there is more to it than that. I guess universal daycare is a non starter in the US, and even though we have that here in Sweden women still opt to stay at home more than men, but that difference getting smaller every year. One of the measures says 30% of childcare days are used by fathers, but that is only paid time. The statistics for the unpaid time is usually a lot worse.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#676
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. An African American is much more likely to be a [edit: convicted] murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one.

> An African American is much more likely to be a murderer than a white American [citation needed] It is true that a black man is more likely to be prosecuted for murder but that’s a wholly different statistic.

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#677
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. An African American is much more likely to be a [edit: convicted] murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one.

> An African American is much more likely to be a murderer than a white American [citation needed] It is true that a black man is more likely to be prosecuted for murder but that’s a wholly different statistic.

~90% murders happen within the same ethnic group.

In a given year, there are about as many black bodies as white bodies, while the population ratio is 1 : 6.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-hom...

> Of the 13,455 cases from last year in which the FBI listed a victim's racial information, 7,039 victims – or 52.3 percent – were black. That compares with 5,854 cases – or 43.5 percent – in which the victim was white, an increase of about 8 percent from last year.

> It's a disparity that becomes more pronounced in the context of population, as 2015 Census estimates suggest that whites account for 77.1 percent of the overall U.S. population of roughly 321 million, while blacks comprise 13.3 percent.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#678
post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their point presumably was that once the kids don't breastfeed exclusively, the mother doesn't need to stay home to perform that task.

It doesn't work like that, because the "complementary food" is just that: complementary. The main source of nutrition according to the WHO should still be breastfeeding until two years old. The typical recommendation is to start each meal by breastfeeding first, and then give some food afterwards as a "second course". The mother can still go to work by using a breast pump to extract milk and leave it refrigerated or…

Worked nicely just breastfeeding during the nights/mornings for us and most people I know after 12 months, and earlier should not be much of a problem IMHO, it's something you should be able decide on your own. It's not something to demand from mothers, because the stigma of not breast feeding can be pretty hard for a new mother and it is completly unnecessary to put that psychological pressure on someone..

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#679
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very feminized view of child rearing. Fatherhood's traditional gender role in raising children is to provide resources and protection. If you don't recognize that as "parenting" then you are missing the plot. Hugs are great, but not nearly as great as food and shelter.

Today, just providing "resources and protection" is indeed considered parenting but inadequate. Any man can help with hugs and the household given the reduced work hours.

https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/child-hunge...

1 in 7 children in America may not know where their next meal is coming from. Many children live in unsafe neighborhoods.

I think perhaps a better way of putting it is that men are primarily responsible for the lower tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs while women are primarily responsible for the upper tiers. Obviously that doesn't mean a man can never change a diaper or a woman can never pay a bill.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work That's not really true. If all women chose to raise children instead of working, many products would have poorer design due to lack of diversity in ideas. And if 95% of women chose not to work, the 5% who want to work will have a harder time in many respects.

> And if 95% of women chose not to work, the 5% who want to work will have a harder time in many respects. Why should the preferences of the 5% override the preferences of the 95%? A widespread norm of two incomes per household makes it much harder for women to be homemakers and full time mothers (since single income households have to compete with dual income households for positional goods like housing).

> A widespread norm of two incomes per household

That is not the only alternative to a male-dominated workforce.

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