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Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

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Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#671
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your car gets a flat every other day, the driver's seat is stuck in the reclined position, it's constantly trying to steer you off the road, and the heater doesn't work, then maybe it's time to give up on fixing it and buy a new car.

It's pushing the analogy, but there are a finite amount of car materials in the world, and at some point you will have to start to recycle even the rusted out junkers if you want to drive. People fixing their country is something that's going to have to start happening eventually .

That's pushing the analogy way too far.

Cars are already made of recycled materials, especially steel and aluminum. But metals in old cars are melted down in foundries and reconstituted to the proper alloys before being used in new cars; they're just used-as is.

To go back to this analogy, that's basically like completely eliminating the government and creating an all-new one from a blank slate. I don't think you were thinking of doing anything that extreme.

And historically speaking, the only time this happens is usually after a major war when a country loses and becomes occupied by another power (Germany & Japan, WWII), or after a bloody revolution (Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, French Revolution in France). #1 is pretty much impossible here, and #2 is not something I want to be around to witness. The most likely outcome is something much more like #3: the fall of Rome, but on a much shorter timescale. That isn't something I want to witness either.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#672
post #623
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then make your case on your disagreements with that report, not on your (frivolous) assumption that he would have had a fair trial.

The report assumes a priori that an extradition threat was real, now we see Trump's DOJ did eventually file one, but he was hiding in the Embassy for years on a false pretext of an imaginary extradition to avoid facing rape charges. The rights of the rape victims to see justice weren't addressed or considered. The question of whether Assange was fleeing justice for rape wasn't ever seriously addressed but just waved…

The moment Assange was dragged out of the embassy, there was an extradition request from the United States. Assange was clearly correct about what would happen, and all the people who laughed off the threat of extradition to the US look pretty silly now.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#673
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I think it's extraordinarily disingenuous to compare protected vs. unprotected sex to whether or not one has a mask on. The consequences of unprotected sex - pregnancy, STDs, etc. - are potentially deadly. 2. Yes, your example describes non-consensual sex, i.e. rape.

Your political belief on the importance protected sex shouldn't be part of what defines rape as a term. If someone has aids doesn't tell the partner and they die they could be charged with murder or assault. But never rape. If you think pointn 2 is rape then a husband promising to take out the trash if sex is performed and him not doing later makes it rape. Fraud perhaps.. you are missing the violence that rape puts…

Rape doesn't need to be violent to be rape.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United Nations has criticized the US for it's treatment of prisoners in the past, the US just ignores them. It is worth noting that the two million incarcerated are serving sentences for crimes they were convicted of, making it marginally less horrible than Assange's situation.

Assange's living conditions were entirely self inflicted. He could have surrendered himself to the Swedish authorities, undergone a trial and had he served time would have spent time in a prison system known for its humane treatment and low recidivism rates: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/26/prison-swede... I am of course assuming that he wouldn't be extradited to the US, in which case not surrendering…

>I am of course assuming that he wouldn't be extradited to the US,

How can you make this assumption given that he was extradited for the exact reasons he mentioned?

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#675
Assange is being prosecuted for his journalistic activities, while the news media that happily profited by republishing WikiLeaks material sits by, hardly raising any objection. That's the really shameful aspect of this entire drama. You'd think they'd be raising all hell right now in order to protect the freedom of the press.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#676
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The report assumes a priori that an extradition threat was real, now we see Trump's DOJ did eventually file one, but he was hiding in the Embassy for years on a false pretext of an imaginary extradition to avoid facing rape charges. The rights of the rape victims to see justice weren't addressed or considered. The question of whether Assange was fleeing justice for rape wasn't ever seriously addressed but just waved…

The moment Assange was dragged out of the embassy, there was an extradition request from the United States. Assange was clearly correct about what would happen, and all the people who laughed off the threat of extradition to the US look pretty silly now.

The only indictment that there is evidence for is from 2017 under the Trump DoJ, 5 years after he fled justice to the embassy. Assange made up a story about a fictional sealed indictment when he fled justice. He just did such a poor job fleeing justice that he wound up with a sealed indictment for criminal behavior he engaged in after he'd moved into the embassy.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That isn't just a legal principle - it's a philosophical principle. If you throw that away and want to talk about probabilities - that's ok too - but then you need to add the probability that the global super power put pressure on people to drum up baloney charges.

It's interesting that people have raised presumption of innocence until proven guilty to a philosophical principle, because its primary utility is as a legal principle. Presumption of innocence in criminal cases has value because the state has all the power (including the monopoly on violence), so if they are to use their monopoly on violence to deprive anyone of their freedoms, the burden of proof should be extremel…

The reason the presumption of innocence is important is because it becomes way too easy to create false evidence (or highlight circumstantial evidence) in order to sway public opinion.

We should have a high threshold for evidence in any arena or we are otherwise way way too susceptible to manipulation.

...or perhaps, more generally - when an opposing entity exists that could conceivably manufacture poor quality evidence, then that should raise the bar of evidence required.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He always maintained he didn't face the charges in Sweden for fear of being extradited to the U.S. For sexual assault he'd likely already be getting out of prison in Sweden, or at least be very close. Extradition to the U.S. has always been the real threat to him. The fact that he's facing extradition now proves it was a valid concern. Even if the Swedes were honestly just trying to get him for sexual assault, he was…

> he was still gonna face U.S. extradition Which would have been no different to the UK Lets take the conspiracy theory at face value 1) Assange in UK 2) Sweden tried to extradite him (via an EAW) relating to charges in Sweden 3) Assange goes to Sweden 4) The charges are dropped, but instead the US extradites him from Sweden to the US 1) Assange in UK 2) Sweden tried to extradite him (via an EAW) relating to charges…

Extraordinary rendition.

Sweden has historically been more than happy to just let US intelligence just black bag Swedish residents and take them to prisons in countries that allow torture, whereas until recently the UK wouldn't even let extraordinary rendition flights refuel on British territory.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#679
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence of an extradition order from the US at the point when Assange first claimed it, and the extradition now is based on Assange being very directly involved with and directing hacks on targets, which is a valid legal justification for extradition. Even if he hadn't lied in claims re: extradition, the current extradition is for credible and serious charges and he should face justice.

But isn't this a bit of a catch 22 though? Do you honestly believe that this situation could have ended any other way, other than him being extradited to the USA? I am saying, that no matter what happened, whether there was a secret order, or not, or whether an extradition order would have been sent, the moment he stepped out of the embassy (but otherwise did not "exist" prior to him stepping out of the embassy), wha…

There are no known extradition orders from the Obama DoJ, and the feds have claimed they didn't want to bother with him in the Holder era. To believe he would be extradited to the US requires Assange's claimed extradition threat to have been real, but there's not only no evidence, but some evidence that suggests there never was one.

The position that there never was a sealed extradition request can be falsified with evidence of one, it's just that there currently is no evidence.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that people have raised presumption of innocence until proven guilty to a philosophical principle, because its primary utility is as a legal principle. Presumption of innocence in criminal cases has value because the state has all the power (including the monopoly on violence), so if they are to use their monopoly on violence to deprive anyone of their freedoms, the burden of proof should be extremel…

The reason the presumption of innocence is important is because it becomes way too easy to create false evidence (or highlight circumstantial evidence) in order to sway public opinion. We should have a high threshold for evidence in any arena or we are otherwise way way too susceptible to manipulation. ...or perhaps, more generally - when an opposing entity exists that could conceivably manufacture poor quality evide…

What you're advocating for us "Be skeptical of unverified evidence of a person's guilt." It's good advice, but does/should it also apply to evidence of a person's innocence?
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