We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#671

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

chronogram wrote: post #464

sidlls wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not normal base salaries even for senior programmers in the bay area. The 60th percentile for senior software engineers is around $180k per year in the Bay Area. Total compensation is commonly $200k or more, easily, but not base. Outside of the Bay Area, even in NY, Chicago, etc., base salaries are lower. In most places they're much lower--below $100k.

Those are not nett salaries are they? So keep in mind in Europe it can be 5k times 2 times 12=120k. (How to use asterisks here?)

[deleted]

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#672

Post by JanisL » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

snowwindwaves wrote: post #559

code_chimp wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't do the 4-5 interview thing any more either. If you cannot make a determination in 1 or 2 interviews in person - in combination with my work history and references then you are wasting my time and yours.

My girlfriend had 10 or maybe even 11 interviews at Stryker without getting an offer. That's pretty twisted

Wow, I honestly wonder how this is possible?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#673

Post by eitland » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:05 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #479

pm90 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I told him what I made. Never make that mistake. Never ever disclose your salary information to someone that you potentially could work for. I think a situation where we were required by law to disclose, or a company where such a thing was common (GitLab) would be exceptions. But otherwise, I've found it to be a huge mistake to disclose your exact salary or numbers to anyone.

It's worth disclosing it to rule out pointless conversations early on if you have strong reasons to believe you're on the higher end of the salary distribution. I wouldn't say it precludes you from asking for more if you can articulate a value proposition that makes you an even better fit for the next opportunity.

Agree: What I do now is pointing out I'm not considering it at all for anything less than my current salary + a good raise.

With that I might or might not consider it.

I've made a simplified version for recruiters here: http://erik.itland.no/step-by-step-instructions-choose-your-...

If anyone likes it they should feel free to adapt and customize it for so it can work for even the most annoying recruiters :-)

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#674

Post by ReptileMan » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #600

rubicon33 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech w…

> A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB I actually love it when a developer says something like this, because it tells me way more than even 2 full days of pairing or interviewing could: They know absolutely nothing about software at scale, and are probably extremely arrogant to boot.

I don't know - I still think that you can replace twitter in a weekend. You just need a couple of markov chain outrage bots shouting at each other, porn scraping bot and a bare metal web server that can process couple of million requests per second.

Jokes aside - the biggest error this software developer makes is not realizing that software is not the crtitcal part of AirBNB success. It is the thousand manyears of boots in streets promoting the app and getting people onboard.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#675

Post by Scoundreller » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

cheez wrote: post #563

Scoundreller wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh, they can prescribe antibiotics just like prescribing any other non-controlled drug.

I know, the fight was prolonged to even get to that point. These days you still only have nurse practitioners in hospitals, at least where I live.

Oh I get you. Credentialism is another level in health care.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#676

Post by varjag » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:08 AM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #645

rootusrootus wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's SV/NYC numbers. Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that.

I guess it depends upon what you mean by "great". In my circle of friends, the people I would call great programmers make 500k+ total compensation regardless of where they live.

why not a million

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#677

Post by TheLuddite » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

badpun wrote: post #296

TheLuddite wrote: post #226

I never understood why the hiring process in IT is so tedious compared to let's say...construction work or driving? Can you imagine that if on hiring a new truck driver the company was passing him trough 50 different routes on snow, ice and wet road. Or forcing a construction worker to build a house or something. Yet if one of these two professions fucks it up - people might die, if a coder fucks up - he'll be fired…

It's incomparably harder to judge the output of a coder vs a truck driver (where you pretty much have 100% visibility into work performance). Hence, companies are wary of hiring slackers or people of low talent, because they know that if they hire one, his low performance may never be detected afterwards. This leads to interviews checking for raw ability (whiteboard tests) and "passion" (show me your github etc.), as…

If you cannot detect a poor performer does it matter if they are a poor performer.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#678

Post by helloyo1212 » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:11 AM UTC

itronitron wrote: post #340

dangero wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

I have noticed two things, 1) every company I have interviewed with has lied to me at some point in the process. Sometimes those are small lies, sometimes they are very big ones. I get that hiring is a complex process but a company's recruiters and hiring managers should make an effort to not over-promise and under-deliver to people that want to work there. 2) I have never received an offer from a company that asked…

>> Sometimes those are small lies, sometimes they are very big ones.

Been there. But lies cut both ways. Once a company is dishonest with you, it is 100% fair game for you to be dishonest with them:

- Side consulting gigs

- During work consulting gigs, especially if you have "unlimited vacation"

- Sneaking off during the day to do whatever

That said, that isn't healthy for either party. The best situation is where both sides are honest and both sides work their hardest to reach a shared goal.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#679

Post by JanisL » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

riazrizvi wrote: post #501

coffeemug wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. What would have to be true for you to agree that there is a shortage of software developers? Big tech cos have total comp of ~$600k/engineer. Would you think there is a shortage if they had to pay $6m/engineer? $60m? How do you define "shortage"?

Those aren’t market wages. Those are compensation packages awarded to long tenured employees at cash cow companies as a form of golden handcuff to keep experts on specific in-house systems. They are paid out to keep employees from taking company secrets to competitors. They work because these compensation packages are so far off market that these employees would suffer a huge pay drop if they moved. So in no way do t…

I'd argue that this is closer to a market rate than it seems because, as you mention, on the open market they can go somewhere else and paying them this much is needed for them to not do that.

How are you defining market rate if not by how much someone thinks they need to pay an employee to stay?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#680

Post by dmode » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

riazrizvi wrote: post #231

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

1000X yes. It’s the result of a PR campaign to increase the H1B Visa allotment. Love H1B employees, they are just delicious! Low wages and zero bargaining power otherwise it’s out of the country with you. It’s also funny because this creates a problem where wages have been driven down to a point where skilled workers can barely afford to support a family in tech zones. So because of these depressed wages in software…

This "H1B causes low wages" meme need to stop. It is such lazy thinking it is amazing. On this very thread people are commenting about outrageous salaries in the valley and peanuts pay in Europe and Canada. Guess which place is full of H1Bs.