We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#201

Post by hopler » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #82

loteck wrote: post #40

As an employee, it is valuable to me that my company will not hire someone who doesn't think our business does something important ("get over yourselves, you're not curing cancer"), or who thinks the right way to ask business decision questions is to ask if "you're morons", or who has a problem with the company asking very basic probing questions, such as confirming you've thought through the challenge of changing fr…

I so dislike the ball-gargling exercise of "why do you want to work here?" It's often a "well, I need a job, you're hiring, and what you guys are doing looks at least marginally interesting to me" - I ought not need to find whatever product/service/market they're doing/in inspiring - I should just want to do it for the pay offered.

Disgusting language like this doesn't belong on HN.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#202

Post by le-mark » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

jobthrowaway420 wrote: post #9

Made my first ever HN throwaway account to respond to this. I have been running a successful business, but it's not "tech". I want to get back into the software industry. I didn't have a software business idea, so I explored some tech company jobs. I am well-qualified at the VP/Director level for startups and even larger companies. I did go so far as to do an on-site interview for one company. I have verifiable proof…

You have to admit there are loads of unscrupulous people out there who will take the compensation you're referring to, deliver nothing and leave. I've seen it myself at one start up I was at. The founders recieved a generous investment (on the order of $40m) to grow the business. They hired sr vp of sales and a sr vp of marketing who did exactly zero to move the business forward after 12 months. Both left having accomplished nothing, but were very well compensated (going from rumors and a few off the cuff comments from one of the founders son, I never saw concrete numbers). Granted their lack of production was probably just as well attributed to the owning cabals lack of agreeing on any damn thing rather than malice, but my point stands.

So ok, you have proven track record, how are you proving that again? I mean just coming in off he street and promising rainbows and money to fall out of the sky is easy.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#203

Post by aidenn0 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

I agree with most things in this, but one point about the "super narrow criteria" part. It's annoying but in reality the list of "must haves" is actually a list of "want to haves" If you check some of the requirements, go ahead and reply. Maybe 10% of the companies actually mean it, the rest will consider hiring you.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#204

Post by sweeneyrod » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

owldimoon wrote: post #168

marcinzm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones who are good salesman do get takers. I don't really know why or how but they get them. Not the greatest engineers but also not bottom feeders. It's surreal. Granted it's usually people who don't realize their own worth or are naive about how much equity is actually going to be worth.

Hey, uh. So, I'm going to be graduating with a B.Eng soon. Any tips on how to realize my own worth? I have a tendency to let myself be taken advantage of... I mean, I'm currently doing a research internship at a computer vision lab at my uni for very little compensation (grant + departmental top-up). I told myself I was doing it "for the experience." I... I feel like I might be a candidate for the behavior you descri…

That's different. Academia pays less at all levels.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#205

Post by testpostpls » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

owldimoon wrote: post #168

marcinzm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones who are good salesman do get takers. I don't really know why or how but they get them. Not the greatest engineers but also not bottom feeders. It's surreal. Granted it's usually people who don't realize their own worth or are naive about how much equity is actually going to be worth.

Hey, uh. So, I'm going to be graduating with a B.Eng soon. Any tips on how to realize my own worth? I have a tendency to let myself be taken advantage of... I mean, I'm currently doing a research internship at a computer vision lab at my uni for very little compensation (grant + departmental top-up). I told myself I was doing it "for the experience." I... I feel like I might be a candidate for the behavior you descri…

The unhappiest people I know are the golddiggers. They cannot escape the feeling that they’re being taken advantage of. That the pie is so big anyways, and they deserve a little more, you know? And oh look, here comes somebody offering just a little more. What kind of sucker wouldn’t want to get paid what they’re really worth?

They’re unhappy because they let other people control their sense of self-worth.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#206

Post by caprese » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #150

pascalxus wrote: post #60

But HR isn't the only problem. In my experience having worked for a company that hired heavily for several years, it was the engineers who lacked the talent necessary to conduct proper interviews. Great candidates were being rejected by the truck load. Us engineers, we're great at engineering but many of the junior and mid-level ones don't have much experience interviewing people and usually no training whatsoever. S…

We switched from a random set of questions to a take home coding assignment (that we compensate for) and a discussion of said coding assignment. It's pretty clear what kind of work someone will do when you can look at work they've done.

Great! Have you encountered any abuse of the compensation aspect?

I typically want to see how people use resources and deliver with real IDEs and collaborative tools like git

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#207

Post by marcinzm » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

owldimoon wrote: post #168

marcinzm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones who are good salesman do get takers. I don't really know why or how but they get them. Not the greatest engineers but also not bottom feeders. It's surreal. Granted it's usually people who don't realize their own worth or are naive about how much equity is actually going to be worth.

Hey, uh. So, I'm going to be graduating with a B.Eng soon. Any tips on how to realize my own worth? I have a tendency to let myself be taken advantage of... I mean, I'm currently doing a research internship at a computer vision lab at my uni for very little compensation (grant + departmental top-up). I told myself I was doing it "for the experience." I... I feel like I might be a candidate for the behavior you descri…

The best way is to interview at good companies and get offers from them. That means the usual Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. and also up-and-coming ones (Uber, Lyft, etc.). You don't even need to want to work for the company but getting an offer will tell you your worth for the future. You will need to study hard for those interviews but it's well documented online what you need to study specifically (read Cracking the Coding Interview, practice Hackerrank, LeetCode, etc.).

There's generally threads online where recent grads say what offers they've gotten from companies and websites like www.paysa.com that try to aggregate them but those are all biased.

Equity is a gamble not in your favor, read up on how many startups fail outright, how many sell for basically nothing, and how much you're going to get diluted in funding rounds. Founders will say otherwise but it's their job to sell you so don't trust them. So if you do want to gamble on a startup make sure to heavily discount the value of equity when negotiating.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#208

Post by rubicon33 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways.

There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs.

Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless they actively pursued ways to prevent that from happening.

And that's how you get organizations like code.org. That's how you get President Obama on the big screen, telling everyone to learn to code. That's how you get a GREAT job, and make it BLUE COLLAR.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#209

Post by cheez » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

But nurse practitioners... God forbid they prescribe you antibiotics.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#210

Post by hpcjoe » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

d4mi3n wrote: post #104

revvx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent developers" that made the current system a giant mess. Lots of red flags but lots of promises including a large maximum salary, including bonuses and stock options. The final offer, however, was 60% of my current pay. Lower than the average for someone with my exper…

Rule number 1, IMO, never discuss salary. I find listing your salary requirements before starting a process weeds out a lot of silly interviews. If you know your worth and have a goal for your salary, it is the most effective way I know to avoid dumb offers.

My favorite was something that happened 2+ years ago. I had closed down my business, and was speaking with folks, including a well funded startup in Milpitas area. I was in the area for a different interview, and spent the evening before that interview with this startup.

I knew the CEO from a previous effort. After much discussion, I thought they had something interesting, though I was hard pressed to find real differentiators. I thought I could help, and the senior leadership of the company did as well. We talked over a number of projects.

Started negotiations, I was asked about what it would take to get me over. I gave them realistic sets of numbers and conditions.

CEO's response to me was priceless.

"But that's more than I make."

Um ... yeah. And this matters ... how?

I know, startups push the equity side hard, as they tend to be cash poor and stock rich.

He then suggested a number that was under half of my minimum acceptable (covering costs, maintaining something that looks like a quality of life). And not so much equity.

Yeah. Didn't go there. CEO was out within a few months.