Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#671

Post by briantakita » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:51 AM UTC

themacguffinman wrote: post #597

sp527 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diversity programs are not about lowering the bar As an Asian male who once upon a time had to apply to colleges, I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion. To be clear, I (and hopefully many other people commenting here) have no problem with outreach, anti-harrassment, and other such workplace training initiatives. It's unfortunate that we can't all achieve a baseline level of civility that abstracts away a…

> as long as we continue to perpetuate diversity practices that emphasize sex and race in any way, some classes of people are going to be harmed The whole reason diversity practices exist is because "some classes of people" are already being harmed. Without "diversity practices", we already have practices that emphasize and discriminate sex and race, except they happen to be the status quo. Attacking diversity for ha…

> The whole reason diversity practices exist is because "some classes of people" are already being harmed. Without "diversity practices", we already have practices that emphasize and discriminate sex and race, except they happen to be the status quo.

Wrong. Everybody has an equal opportunity. Equal results are not guaranteed, nor should be guaranteed.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#672

Post by hyperdunc » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:52 AM UTC

shusson wrote: post #405

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

> We have a culture of anti-intellectualism and dogmatism around certain topics that for whatever reason are considered sacred and not allowed to be challenged (ie. political correctness), and its disgraceful. From a personal perspective I get where you are coming from, but from a professional perspective it makes no sense. There are ways to present opposing viewpoints in a workplace without offending half of the peo…

Many people take offense so easily these days that I doubt it is possible to have a decent discussion about these issues without offending quite a few people.

Our mistake is prioritizing offense mitigation. So long as a person's primary intent isn't to offend then they should be able to say anything without being fired.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#673

Post by mehwoot » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:53 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #606

mehwoot wrote: post #243

Reading the letter, what surprised me was how political it was, framing everything as a "left vs right" cultural fight. I think if it was up to me I'd probably fire anybody on either side of that debate who started circulating shit like this. As soon as you're on that level, nothing good is going to come of it and you're just going to make a lot of people angry, which is very bad for the business in a lot of differen…

>The workplace is no place for politics like this. Actually, it is, in California. Political affiliation is a protected class. You have to make a different argument if you want him fired.

No I don't, because I don't live in the U.S.

Google didn't fire him for the reasons I gave.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#674

Post by bowlofpetunias » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:54 AM UTC

mehwoot wrote: post #243

Reading the letter, what surprised me was how political it was, framing everything as a "left vs right" cultural fight. I think if it was up to me I'd probably fire anybody on either side of that debate who started circulating shit like this. As soon as you're on that level, nothing good is going to come of it and you're just going to make a lot of people angry, which is very bad for the business in a lot of differen…

Saying "the workplace is no place for politics" is basically saying the workplace is no place to be human.

All workplaces are political. The politics of founder/owners/executives are in every fiber of he workplace. Denying it is highly disingenuous.

Moreover, said denial is one of the root causes why we are having these issues. The tech industry likes to project an image of being "liberal", when in fact the culture is highly conservative. Until recently, people like the author felt perfectly at home in most tech companies, including Google, because its politics quietly aligned with their politics.

And now that he's making it explicit he is suddenly the one politicising the workplace?

To be clear, I vehemently disagree with the author. But until about ten years ago, most of the industry quietly agreed with these views, which is why we have these problems in the first place.

It was political then and it is political now. It took political resistance to put diversity on the corporate agenda in the first place.

The workplace culture is and will always be a primary political arena. Especially with a company like Google, that is actively involved in politics and shaping our society in general.

What people who claim that the workplace is no place for politics are basically saying is that the workplace is no place for politics they disagree with. (Ironically, the position that the workplace is no place for politics is a traditionally conservative position. Worker bees should keep their ideology at home, whereas corporations are free to politically indoctrinate workers through euphemisms like "culture" and "values".)

I applaud the author for standing up for his political believes as much as I applaud Google for firing him.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#675

Post by 77pt77 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:55 AM UTC

escape_goat wrote: post #203

The best explanation of why he was going to be fired and why that was the right thing to do (that I read) came from Yonatan Zunger, who had recently left a Human Resources position at Google; especially his third point, in the following post on Medium: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... In many way, it was not an unfamiliar sort of rant for the internet, and I was struck by the author's e…

> especially his third point, in the following post on Medium:

Relevant parts:

> (3) And most seriously, the author does not appear to understand the consequences of what he wrote, either for others or himself.

...

> These views are fundamentally corrosive to any organization they show up in, drive people out, and I can’t think of any organization not specifically dedicated to those views that they would be welcome in. I’m afraid that’s likely to remain a serious problem for you for a long time to come. But our company is committed to maintaining a good environment for all of its people, and if one person is determined to thwart that, the solution is pretty clear.[2]

...

>[2] https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1...

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#676

Post by postnihilism » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:55 AM UTC

kromem wrote: post #603

postnihilism wrote: post #275

This feels like the blue and black (white and gold) dress. It boggles my mind that people don't see the fundamental and toxic misogyny in this 'manifesto'. Please have a woman you care about in your life, preferably one in tech, read this and then ask their opinion of the piece. The "treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group" sentiment of the author is fine except that we have hundreds of…

If we're so concerned with the advantages of wealth and education inequality, why are we still using race (a bad proxy, given the spread and distribution around the averages - the whole point of the original document) as the determining factor instead of just asking for tax returns/education records for special programs? And regarding gender - let's consider the example of salary negotiation. Now, if you research, yo…

My comment about 'White Male Persecution Complex (PC)" was tongue and cheek. I should have known that would be a mistake in this conversation.

I have many white male coworkers (as you'd expect given the demographic statistics for tech) and I have nothing but the utmost respect for their ability. I don't harbor any assumption that, "that they've had a silver spoon in their mouths their whole life."

I don't think that believing that there are groups that have been more economically and socially marginalized than white males is alienating. I also don't think that it implies that I believe my white male coworkers have been given a free pass to the positions they are in today. Everyone I work with has had to pass the same bar.

As I've stated, all of the statements I've made here are my own, made on my own time, on a public site and do not represent the views of my employer. I leave my politics at home.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#677

Post by gopz » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:56 AM UTC

thex10 wrote: post #366

As a minority woman in tech I'm not bothered much by his document, but that's only because I don't work with this guy or folks like him. His manifesto doesn't pain me, but that's only because I have a secure job coding all my favorite things with people who don't spew this kind of unsubstantiated crap to my colleagues, giving them spurious reasons to doubt my abilities and inherent qualities. My sympathies are with t…

Although it is tough to tell, it definitely seems like Gizmodo may have stripped out some of his sources. From Gizmodo's preamble:

> Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted.

I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt that there were probably sources. As has been noted in the original YC post about this, it seems like he gets a lot of his info from this study:

http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#678

Post by Cakez0r » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

mehwoot wrote: post #243

Reading the letter, what surprised me was how political it was, framing everything as a "left vs right" cultural fight. I think if it was up to me I'd probably fire anybody on either side of that debate who started circulating shit like this. As soon as you're on that level, nothing good is going to come of it and you're just going to make a lot of people angry, which is very bad for the business in a lot of differen…

I hate that the diversity issue has been tightly coupled with left-wing politics. Now you can't take a stance on the diversity issue without aligning yourself with left/right wingers by proxy.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#679

Post by jamesrcole » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

It doesn't matter how good or bad the reasoning in the memo was, nor whether you think the conclusions it draws were good or bad, writing and circulating a memo like that should not be grounds for firing someone. I think this is Google being evil, and makes me seriously question whether I'd ever want to work there.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#680

Post by redditmigrant » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 8:58 AM UTC

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

Diversity by its essence is about diversity, and hence accepting people who are opposed to diversity is antithetical to the idea of diversity. So this argument of accepting diverse viewpoints including those against diversity is non-sensical.

The idea behind diversity is not to ignore gender differences, or racial differences, but to have the belief that skill and talent exists can come from anywhere. So these viewpoints that make generalizations about people because of their gender, race etc. serve to exclude the talent that can come from the non-white/male quarter.

Now this person is probably a good engineer, but its fair to say his impact to computing will never be as great as Ada Lovelace, Anita Borg, Fei Fei Li etc. So if a viewpoint like his hinders the next Grace Hopper then firing him is a worthy price.

The thing that the anti diversity warriors fail to understand is that their viewpoints are exclusionary to a whole swath of people, so please dont expect sympathy for your opinion when your viewpoint tells some people to go away just because of their gender/race.