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UK votes to leave EU

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671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#671
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

>A very sad day for everyone in Europe.

I don't know, I'm pretty glad myself.

>The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together.

Only there is not much "growing together". Besides the bureaucracy there were certain large countries (and alliances) pissing all over smaller ones, in things from trade agreements to fiscal policies and other decisions.

A lot of people seem to value vague unity, but this was the opposite of democracy, where rampant groups with no official standing (the ad-hoc "Eurogroup" for one) and bodies no one voted for, where ruling a whole continent.

So, valuing this kind of faux unity is, for me, like saying "It was nice when the US, Canada, India, Australia, England, Scotland, Ireland etc were united -- under British rule".

>so that there are no arbitrary geographic borders limiting the freedom and the rights of the individual

Borders in Europe are the opposite of arbitrary: they are based on culture, history, economy, popular revolutions, sovereignty, and lots of other factors.

(In a continent like Africa yes, a lot of borders are arbitrary, because they were decided and drawn on some map from colonial powers dividing their lands -- the will of the local people, culture, etc be damned).

And borders are not some plight on the "individual". They are a large-scale extension of their individuality -- ensuring the individuality and independence of their way of life at a larger scale.

There's a whole order of magnitude difference of 350 million people (most of which have different cultures and priorities, not to mention interests) voting for what happens in your country of 30 or 20 million. Even worse when the decision is left to some bureaucrats in the pockets of big business.

>In my eyes, the EU was very much about the same thing. It didn't matter in which part of the EU you lived or had your business. Being part of the EU granted you rights and equal access to the rest of Europe.

Well, if you could have that without the political power plays, coercion, disregard for democracy, and plundering of lesser countries, that would be great.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#673
post #627

I fail to understand how this is a referendum on migration as it is claimed to be. The movement of people with the EU is independent of the flow of people into the EU (the "migrant crisis" of the Syrian war for example). So how is it about migration? Are UK voters afraid of eastern European EU migrants or is it something else? If anything, being a part of the EU allows the UK to force migrants to seek asylum in the c…

The working classes have seen wages depressed by eastern Europeans willing to work for less in skilled manual fields e.g. building. It's a sore point for many.

Understandable, but also completely unrelated to the recent surge of non-EU migrants. I get a feeling that populists try to connect these two things (refugees and lowered wages from EU migration).

I think the problem is related the weak labor laws of the U.K. (Compared to e.g France, Germany or the Nordics). UK workers can more easily be replaced and have less security when they are.

It's a complete failure of social democrat policies if the popular response to depressed wages is right wing populism rather than unionization and calls for stronger labor laws.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#674
post #392

One more thing: the UK was the official reason English is one of the languages of the EU (same as, on paper at least, with all the other languages). It will require some more fiddling to keep it so.

Luckily English is the official language in other EU countries as well. Ireland & Malta. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#675
post #634
post #426

We are all talking about economics but the whole deal is way more noble than mere money. No European ever has never think "woow this shinny $consumer_object is been produced inside the EU so I don't get to pay the import tax" but every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website and thought "for 30€ I guess this weekend I will be in London/Paris/Berlin/Madrid/Rome". The w…

I think you'll be surprised how many people spend their time traveling around Europe having fun, being lazy, drinking beer and having sex. I mean, it sounds idyllic, but how many people -- particularly working classes -- do that? I don't buy the idea that people only travel into Europe because of the EU. Freedom to travel is really freedom to work.

UK has visa free access to 174 countries. EU can tank its tourism industry out of spite if it wants, but it won't be matching the decisions of the rest of the world when it does so. Weekend tourism is not exactly going to be banned unless the EU goes entirely mad and self destructs.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#676
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> I would guess no small part of them will try to move to the remaining EU states. You seem to underestimate the language barrier. I once talked to a few British young people about which country they would like to move to and I recall they mentioned New Zealand and the US, none of them mentioned any country in continental Europe and when I asked why I got confirmation that language issues matter. That's one reason am…

I've got a Facebook feed full of friends discussing their destinations right now. Helsinki is a popular possibility.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#677

> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share? The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

>It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

This belief, and a horrid past (and present) of exploiting, plundering, murdering, etc all over the world, from the Crusades and colonial times to the Holocaust and onwards, is what makes it one of the most bloody and backwards "achievements of the human species".

Some exhibits from the "greatest achievement of the human species":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#678
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Agreed. As an aside, for me this is a sterling example of the dangers of "direct democracy", that many see as the solution of all evils that plague the political process. The majority of UK lawmakers (democratically elected by the same people that voted the referendum) were in favor of staying in the Union: even a large number with conservative and traditionalist background (including the PM). Yet the future of the U…

But isn't this the point of direct democracy? That you can elect someone (a MP) to represent you in most issues you care mildly about, despite not agreeing with them on some very important issues. You get to vote on those issues separately.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#679

Hmm... What happens to the union with Ireland then? Will it still be possible to travel from Ireland to the UK without showing documents? If not... then will there be a new fence across Ireland (between north and south)?

Ireland and England have something called the Common Travel Area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area) which is unrelated to the EU. Basically shouldn't be affected really. Only destabilizing thing that comes to mind would be the Scotland + N. Ireland leaving the UK might make them rethink this.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#680
post #277
post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

The markets are mostly reacting to the uncertainty this creates, rather than judgement if this was good or bad in the long term. Nobody knows the future status of the uk. If we get good deals expect the markets to recover in a couple of years.

Zimbabwe also wants good deals. And Burkina Fasso. It does not mean they get them.

There are around 200 countries on Earth. Sorry, 200 countries and the UK, which is special, by natural right. So let's say that those 201 countries have to make an agreement to sell cars: that's something like 40200 agreements. And each country has to negotiate 200 agreements. To sell cars.

Have fun with that.

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