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Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

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Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#661

Maybe a push to eliminate proprietary operating systems and file formats from government-supported processes would be more effective? It could be legislative but it could also mean governments supporting FOSS development more. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but this just seems to me like treating the symptoms instead of the root cause.

The problem here is that governments are really bad at building functional and cost-effective software 99% of the time and 99% of FOSS developers are always starved of resources.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#662
post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be the reason for a lot of services. Amazon/YouTube/Apple/etc. Music don't need to be better than Spotify, but just good enough that someone won't pay for a competitor. This limits the competitors potential revenue and helps keep them from growing into stronger competition. Plus, you use your market incumbency to stifle competition in other ways (e.g., putting advertisements for Apple Music in settings)…

Oh, Apple is way more forceful than that. I keep finding myself in the situation where I pause YouTube on my headphones, speak for a while with someone, click to unpause and instead of resuming on YouTube that starts Apple Music playing the same U2 album. I'm still refusing to set that damn thing up, much less have it be the default recipient of the play button.

macOS I assume? I use a little app called noTunes (it's on github) to prevent that from happening.

edit: should be this one: https://github.com/tombonez/noTunes

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#663
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which decade did these events transpire in? 00s? It also sounds like the issues had little to do with the language and a lot with specific positions and market... I fail to recognize the language you are talking about, but perhaps the fondness of Ruby is a subtle hint of warped perception of reality?

Scattered years, a year contract here and there. The toxic culture event was 2023 and EA was 2022. The fist fight was 2006 or so. But interesting that you throw shade at Ruby with no explanation. Feel free to expand at length. I would like to hear your objections.

Ruby is just a bad technology - very slow, brittle, extremely messy the moment a codebase becomes larger than trivial, not ideal package management, unproductive. It was made work by many great engineers that would have either had more success with a different technology or would have spent less effort in achieving their goals with it. Pick C# or Kotlin with ASP.NET Core or Ktor and be faster at shipping both the initial prototype and then managing the product after years of growth, while enjoying 10x difference in server resources utilization.

But frankly your sentiment on C# is so unhinged that I don't even know where to start.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#664
post #631
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teams works in Firefox. However, Firefox on Android is not supported.

Random errors during calls, tab freezes etc.. "Supported."

I mean, on Windows with the official Teams, I see "Person is visibly talking, but there's no audio (and did not mute themselves accidentally)" multiple times a week. So, yeah, going from that baseline, that's surely "supported".

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#665

This essentially killed my (EU-based) startup in the project management and collaborate space. Before MSFT bundled Teams with O365 we were rapidly growing and closing enterprise customers in the automotive, energy and education industries with high retention rates. Right around the time the Teams bundling started our retention dropped, churn went through the roof, growth slowed down, we failed to raise our next round…

That's am understandable perspective but wouldn't this more or less apply to any product any large company is selling as part of a bundle? e.g. selling Word/Excel/PowerPoint together is hurting any start-up that might want to enter the document processing/spreadsheet/etc markets? Free browsers killed the entire market that was starting to appear in the 90s etc. etc. Should office suites be banned? Should Adobe be onl…

> At the end of the day it should only matter if Microsoft's practices are hurting consumers rather than their competitors.

Focusing on short term repercussions for consumers has significantly hurt long term consumer interests and there is evidence that it hurt the economy in general. In the decades preceding the 1980s it was generally understood that competition itself is a necessity for effective free markets and that extreme power concentration (as we e.g. see today in the IT sector) is hard to reconcile with efficient markets and political freedom.

See [1] for details, here is an excerpt:

> An emerging group of young scholars are inquiring whether we truly benefitted from competition with little antitrust enforcement. The mounting evidence suggests no. New business formation has steadily declined as a share of the economy since the late 1970s. “In 1982, young firms [those five-years old or younger] accounted for about half of all firms, and one-fifth of total employment,” observed Jason Furman, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers. But by 2013, these figures fell “to about one-third of firms and one-tenth of total employment.” Competition is decreasing in many significant markets, as they become concentrated. Greater profits are falling in the hands of fewer firms. “More than 75% of US industries have experienced an increase in concentration levels over the last two decades,” one recent study found. “Firms in industries with the largest increases in product market concentration have enjoyed higher profit margins, positive abnormal stock returns, and more profitable M&A deals, which suggests that market power is becoming an important source of value.” Since the late 1970s, wealth inequality has grown, and worker mobility has declined. Labor’s share of income in the nonfarm business sector was in the mid-60 percentage points for several decades after WWII, but that too has declined since 2000 to the mid-50s. Despite the higher returns to capital, businesses in markets with rising concentration and less competition are investing relatively less. This investment gap, one study found, is driven by industry leaders who have higher profit margins.

[1] https://archive.is/HEik3#selection-1737.0-1737.346 (original: https://hbr.org/2017/12/the-rise-fall-and-rebirth-of-the-u-s... )

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is excel and word any more connected than teams and excel or teams and word? Or even outlook? If outlook can be grouped with “office suite”, and EU didn’t have a problem with that, why not Teams? It is also for communicating with people.

> Why is excel and word any more connected than teams and excel or teams and word? Or even outlook? If outlook can be grouped with “office suite”, and EU didn’t have a problem with that, why not Teams? It's not. The argument you're replying to is remarkably similar to the ones in the EU+Apple threads: Why should iOS be considered a "general purpose" OS? Because people consider it as such. Why isn't Xbox or Switch a "…

> Why should iOS be considered a "general purpose" OS? Because people consider it as such.

I don't.

No more than I consider NetApp OS or OneFS general purpose, even though both are based/built on BSD (I've SSHed into OneFS CLI often in my last job)

At least with Apple/iOS (not sure about Android), phones and tablets were purposefully designed to be appliances from the very beginning.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's am understandable perspective but wouldn't this more or less apply to any product any large company is selling as part of a bundle? e.g. selling Word/Excel/PowerPoint together is hurting any start-up that might want to enter the document processing/spreadsheet/etc markets? Free browsers killed the entire market that was starting to appear in the 90s etc. etc. Should office suites be banned? Should Adobe be onl…

Is hurting competitors not the same as hurting consumers?

Companies intentionally trying not to hurt their competitors can't really be described as anything else than a cartel (even if it's not explicit) that's almost invariably horrible for consumers (.e.g. telecom companies, banks, etc. in many countries).

Ideally you always want to see companies trying to run their competitors out of business by undercutting them and offering better products at lower prices. The issue when the playing field isn't level e.g. what MS is doing here is basically predatory pricing. But even then it's not exactly clear cut, e.g. did Uber running out many taxi companies out of business (or destroying their profit margins) was a net-negative or a net positive to consumers?

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#668
post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they broke this somewhat recently. Video &c. doesn't work in Chromium either. So this means that I pull my customers into a competitor product, and they also get to hear me badmouth Teams if I find an opportunity to do so.

Everyone I work with is constantly badmouthing Teams. It's buggy and flakey and they killed Linux support which my company actually made use of. Either way, it doesn't matter since it's bundled. Literally killed any chance of competition getting a fair shake at our usage. Teams doesn't have to be better, they're just bundled.

Yup. My company was seriously considering slack, but then teams came in the o365 bundle they were already paying for, so we went with teams.

It's better than where we were (Cisco jabber) but also worse than what's out there.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#669
post #441

This essentially killed my (EU-based) startup in the project management and collaborate space. Before MSFT bundled Teams with O365 we were rapidly growing and closing enterprise customers in the automotive, energy and education industries with high retention rates. Right around the time the Teams bundling started our retention dropped, churn went through the roof, growth slowed down, we failed to raise our next round…

Last time I checked, they also arbitrarily excluded Firefox, which works fine on other WebRTC platforms such as Google Hangouts or Zoom. Furthermore, I have always needed a Microsoft account to join a Teams meeting, as they want to make sure you get sucked into their ecosystem. Aside from that, resource consumption on Chromium is totally crazy. Zoom or Hangouts are fine, but Teams makes my old NUC overheat during sim…

Eh Firefox doesn't work fine with at least Google Meet in my experience (which covers both Firefox on macOS aarch64 and Firefox on Linux amd64). It's alright in the beginning, but if Firefox has been open for a while, the out-going audio gets choppy and the recipients don't hear anything. Restarting Firefox fixes it, but this is enough of a problem for me to have Chrome installed on every computer where I may have to do a video call.

Firefox doesn't seem to be intentionally blocked by Teams in my experience (or at least not anymore?), but maybe it should be.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#670
post #669
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, they also arbitrarily excluded Firefox, which works fine on other WebRTC platforms such as Google Hangouts or Zoom. Furthermore, I have always needed a Microsoft account to join a Teams meeting, as they want to make sure you get sucked into their ecosystem. Aside from that, resource consumption on Chromium is totally crazy. Zoom or Hangouts are fine, but Teams makes my old NUC overheat during sim…

Eh Firefox doesn't work fine with at least Google Meet in my experience (which covers both Firefox on macOS aarch64 and Firefox on Linux amd64). It's alright in the beginning, but if Firefox has been open for a while, the out-going audio gets choppy and the recipients don't hear anything. Restarting Firefox fixes it, but this is enough of a problem for me to have Chrome installed on every computer where I may have to…

I've used Firefox on Linux to regularly attend multi-hour meetings for the last at least 5 years without issues from multiple devices and it has always worked smoothly for me. The only issue I have had is that in the last year sometimes the joining screen says that I have no camera and mic for a while (maybe 20s) before letting me join.

I regularly use Meet, Zoom and Jitsi on Firefox and Meet has been the only one that always just worked for me and my guests.

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