Live data from Hacker News

Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

overkill.wtf

661–670 of 709 posts

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#661
post #109

>(A)to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; If this is what Nintendo alleges yuzu facilitates, does Nintendo have a case? Reimplementing the security measures seems like a reaffirmation of the security measures, not an impairment.

IANAL and I've never used a switch emulator before, but if you have a feature for supplying keys to play proprietary games then I believe that constitutes as bypassing a technological protection mechanism. However, if that same feature is used to allow supplying self-signed keys to play custom software/homebrew, and there's no other way to do this, then it might be murky.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sorry, I misread Nintendo's legal complaint. That being said, I don't think two layers of indirection help Yuzu. It's one thing to say "this requires decryption keys and you have to rip your own games", and another to say "and here's where and how you get those things". Put it this way: You know how emulator developers are very strict about not providing ROMs for obvious reasons? The decryption keys work the sa…

But Yuzu's instructions for getting decryption keys is for the correct , legal, way to do it. They're not linking to the sites where you can grab already-dumped keys - that would be the analogy to your example. The correct analogy would be if Yuzu told you how to dump your own ROMs - which is exactly what it does (and should do).

I'm not convinced that even telling people how to dump their own keys is legal.

DMCA 1201 comes in two parts: a law that prohibits breaking DRM, and a law that prohibits telling people how to break DRM. If someone just had a Switch and somehow managed to figure out how to get the keys and games out of it, then ran them on an emulator, it'd probably be legal[0]. This is because the part of 1201 that makes it illegal to break DRM has shittons of escape valves that are designed to ensure that previously legal behavior doesn't suddenly become illegal just because you put a digital lock on it.

However, the part that prohibits trafficking in circumvention devices lacks any of these escape valves. I believe this to be by design. Congress wasn't willing to, say, reverse the Sony Betamax decision[1] and criminalize home video recording, but they were willing to allow Hollywood to slowly shut it down. A escape valve for circumvention would render the whole law ineffective: so long as someone has a legal right to break the DRM, you can sell it to anyone, not just people who can demonstrate they need it.

The legal standard for what constitutes a circumvention device is very broad. Specifically, something is a circumvention device if either:

- It's only function is to break DRM, or

- It's only commercially significant function is to break DRM (read: courts, ignore Betamax), or

- It's advertised to break DRM

That last one is the tricky bit. Let's say I took an ordinary HDMI-to-composite video adapter and put a sticker on it that said "Copy Netflix Originals Quick And Easy"[2]. Streaming boxes and Blu-Ray players support unencrypted output at legacy resolutions, so the video adapter breaks no DRM, it's just a DAC. But because I've advertised it as a way to strip DRM, I've broken the law by selling it.

So let's go back to our key dumping tool. Even if it's literally just a shell script for whatever the Switch equivalent of GodMode9 is, because it's being advertised as a way to copy games, it's just as illegal as putting the production Switch keys directly into Yuzu's source code. As an emulator developer, the only way to avoid liability under DMCA 1201 is to provide zero assistance to people who want to rip their games.

[0] This isn't court-tested, and probably never will, but prior attempts to argue against format-shifting in US courts haven't fared well.

[1] SCOTUS would do that later on with MGM v. Grokster. Remember: the reason why Sony was in hot water was specifically because they advertised Betamax as being good for pirating movies, not just that you could do so.

[2] In the world where Congress did include safety valves for 1201(a)(2), this sticker would probably say "Make Fair Use Commentaries On Netflix Originals Quick And Easy".

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#663
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not the problem. Zelda BoTW being released 7 days BEFORE being on Switch, and 60FPS, and better gameplay on a real computer is what caught Nintendo's attention. And with Yuzu and joycons, you can have EVERY game, including their online only stuff. And if you pay for those online only, piracy is the only way to guarantee that you'll keep them. They've destroyed the: NDS, Gamecube, Wii, WiiU stores/online content…

Gamecube never had online

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameCube_online_functionality

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#664
post #289

Two paragraphs into the legal complaint[1], Nintendo says such BS as: > A video game emulator is a piece of software that allows users to unlawfully play pirated video games that were published only for a specific console on a general-purpose computing device [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...

Why is that BS? It's true. It's not the only use of an emulator, but it's the primary use.

A more accurate rewording of Nintendo's statement (keeping their point of view):

> A video emulator is piece of software that allows a user to run a video game on a platform different from that for which is was written. Many people use emulators to play unlawfully obtained pirated games.

Wording something as definition implies that the statement both contains no falsehoods and is complete.

Saying that the purpose of an emulator is to play pirated games is not true. I use an emulator to play Super Smash Bros Melee on my computer, with the ROM obtained from the disk I own. People have modded the Super Smash Bros Melee game to allow for online play, something that would be impossible without an emulator. People used emulators to find a bug in Ocarina of Time that would allow them to beat the game (played on original hardware) faster.

But the statement is written to confuse a non-technical fact finder into thinking that the only purpose of an emulator is to play a video game without paying for it, or to help others to do so. And it's done so because that Nintendo doesn't believe that you own the game you buy from it.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean Valve literally had a trailer with a nintendo emulator as an app installed... Valve doesn't need to do RND for its games because they can just use whatever is on steam that is playable on the deck plus a ton of games from nintendo consoles via emulators as a selling point.

Nintendo could do the exact same thing if they made their platforms open like Steam does. That the switch is limited to only Switch games is entirely a choice they made because their whole existence they've been all about proprietary and locked down.

That doesn't legally entitle others to copy Nintendo's systems or code...

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#666
post #409

The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible. This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how much Yuzu is used for piracy. I have many acquaintances/friends in different circles, with the means to pay, who use Yuzu for piracy. There are dedicated forums of people who coordinate on how to do this. Emulation is great as a means to study or play backups,…

Seriously it's just bizarre how obtuse HN can be when it comes to piracy. Nobody is dumping their own games. Very few buy the switch games they emulate. The following usual claim is "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android". What kind of asinine argument is that? Then there's the "emulation isn't illegal", which is probably the only sound argument. But that isn't the issue here. The…

> "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android"

I understand if you disagree with this argument (I don't know if I'd endorse it wholeheartedly), but I don't see how it is asinine. The wider context here is that there are people who believe in "general computing", i.e. the idea that users should retain full control over computing devices and software they buy.

The philosophy of companies of companies like Nintendo is that when you buy a game from them, you are buying the right to play the game in exactly the way they want. If they could make modding illegal, they would (it is in Japan, to my understanding). This runs counter to the idea of general computing, where you should be to play a game you buy in any way you want, including modding, or playing on a different device, etc.

So to return to the point, the argument is that by refusing to sell their games to users of other platforms (as well as their other actions), Nintendo is working against the goal of general computing, and therefore it's not worth feeling sorry for them when people pirate the game. Phrased differently, people who don't own a Switch have no way to play the game besides pirating, and people should be able to buy games separately from devices.

Another fundamental argument here is that hardware/software walled gardens which are enforced by anti-circumvention and copyright laws are basically anti-competitive monopolies.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo could do the exact same thing if they made their platforms open like Steam does. That the switch is limited to only Switch games is entirely a choice they made because their whole existence they've been all about proprietary and locked down.

I mean, to be fair, the NES lockout chip is what salvaged the video game industry after hoards of shitty games caused it to collapse. Obviously a lot has changed since then. Now they do it to protect their own IP and investments.

As an aside to this, are there any documentaries or clips or things to read about "retro" console piracy that necessitated something like the lockout chip? I mean at this point I know about flashcarts but I dont know a thing about back when the NES wouldve been new-ish, let alone before then.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's even crazier than that. The game got leaked and patches were created before the game got officially released.

What exactly do you mean by "patches were created before the game got officially released" ? It was my impression that some patches had been going around, but that they certainly weren't created by or endorsed by the Yuzu project in any official capacity - I don't see how random people creating patches for open source projects should give rise to any legal liability to the original project.

What I mean is that the game got leaked like 2 weeks before it's official release, - so on 4chan I think some anons created 60 fps patches a few days later, effectively creating patches before the game even got released. This had nothing to do with Yuzu, I'm just remarking at how fast the community worked on it.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#669
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lockout ship was there to prevent piracy. By the time the console made its way to North America there were known bypasses. Ironically enough if there's an argument to be made about what saved the industry and how quality control was involved it would be the Nintendo seal of quality and then the strong arming that they did to various retailers saying that if they sold any game that didn't have Nintendo's backing t…

That's impossible; the lockout chip debuted with the North American version of the console, so there couldn't have been known bypasses beforehand. The Famicom had no CIC. The lockout chip is what made the "seal of quality" scheme feasible in the first place. If alternative games were widely available, Nintendo wouldn't have had nearly as much leverage to strongarm with.

The minute the device was released in North America the lockout chip was already defeated by passthrough devices that took a "real" game and used that for the CIC bootup process. There were also multiple variants of voltage spike attacks and revisions of the console to guard against those, so it was certainly happening otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have wasted time changing the design.

Also, look at the timeline and the history behind Tengen which was essentially a company created by Atari specifically with the purpose of publishing their games on Nintendo and used essentially corporate espionage to get the underlying MPU used for the CIC logic that was a corporate secret. The actual lawsuits get filed a few years once Nintendo had enough evidence, but it was going on from the start of the lifespan of the console.

The NES was released in North America in late 1985. By 1987 there were commercially available games (from Tengen) that were playable without the permission of Nintendo. Tengen was not the only one or even the only method being used to break that console at that time.

And then there is Game Genie, which effectively can work around all of these problems. Sure, they included some logic to play nice and let the NES check the CIC again, but you can work around that with a game genie code itself! In the early days Game Genie and GameShark devices were well known for being vectors for piracy and they leaned into that.

*EDIT* This doesn't even get into the VAST array of devices that existed to clone cartridges or adapt floppy drives similar to how the Famicom did. At worst those required a stupid dummy cart to sit in them that never gets removed or the manufacturer did that for you and put a CIC in the device. Some used various attacks mentioned earlier to work around even having to do that.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK yuzu requires you provide your own firmware dump, so no redistribution happening

not true, just grab a copy of firmware files online and be gtg. its just yuzus docs thats written in such a way, most likely to avoid nintendo suing them…

By "online" do you mean a random ROM website, or any Yuzu provided/hosted/whatever page? I.E. are they linked to such firmware and key redistribution? I was under the impression there was no affiliation, but I may be wrong there.

By affiliation I mean something like hosted on the same server but officially unlinked, not obvious affiliations. If a core maintainer redistributing them on their personal website.

Post reply on HN