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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monero is a good thing to look into. Even if you don’t want to hold it yourself, swapping in and out of it will make the “paper” trail that much harder to follow.

I’ve heard a lot of reports of popular exchanges freezing accounts of customers who traded with other exchanges that don’t have strong KYC requirements. How am I supposed to exchange for Monero if Coinbase (and the state of New York) dislike it? I’m not trying to be sarcastic. I genuinely don’t know what to do in order to use Monero.

Only use exchanges to put in cash or to do exchanges. If you're serious about crypto and want more than a few hundred dollars in there, you should get a ledger and move your money off of the exchanges (hardware wallet).

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#662

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> too powerful to not be abused

And it was abused fairly quickly. The problem is that people don't really seems to understand that this is a problem even if they do not support the current cause. I hope this is an educational instead of a neurological issue.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#663

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

Yeah cashless is the way to go, but I dont think the problem is as big as it seems. People are also becoming digital nomads, and while citizenships for pay, and more importantly the digital identities that come with them, are still kind of expensive, long term I expect it will become cheaper and more common.

This also directly solves the issue of op. Cryptocurrencies are a stop gap solution to this, but known transaction histories and inherently poor fraud prevention make them poor digital cash replacements. Today Ecuador is shilling bitcoin, but imagine if they instead sold tier 2 citizenships, no taxes no welfare type, with new and independent identities. Pay 5000$ and get a new identity and passport, along with an account in one of our many banks, or which can be used to set up an account in an international bank. Sure you wont get to share credit scores with your main identity... Various international laws mean it wont be called exactly this, perhaps its a fee for the creation of a minimum accounting requirement corporation with hidden controller instead (and trying to prevent these is already ongoing but it does not work), but it does not matter in practice. As long as it satisfies the conditions of being able to make transactions easily, has a dispute mechanism with centralized authority with the self serving interest to remain independent, etc.

I'd wager that the majority of identity thefts arent performed in order to steal money from that identity or ever even cause any damage to the original identity. They are performed in order to get around travel and work restrictions. Lets say you are from ukraine or belarus, now getting a work visa equivalent to germany or france is kindof a pain in the ass, in particular doing so quickly, but buying a stolen passport from e.g. rumania isnt hard, and all you are doing is setting up a single french debit account in that name and working under that identity. Odds are that kind of thing gets discovered 30 years latter when the original identity realizes they are getting a small pension from some job in france they never had. But why would they care.

Massively expanded surveillance states could prevent this, but while that will be the case in china, places like the usa are just to discoordinated, and the eu is actively working against it to the point both google and facebook are no longer asking. How can we make our ads better, but rather how can we keep ad quality with much less information per user.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#664
post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard a lot of reports of popular exchanges freezing accounts of customers who traded with other exchanges that don’t have strong KYC requirements. How am I supposed to exchange for Monero if Coinbase (and the state of New York) dislike it? I’m not trying to be sarcastic. I genuinely don’t know what to do in order to use Monero.

Only use exchanges to put in cash or to do exchanges. If you're serious about crypto and want more than a few hundred dollars in there, you should get a ledger and move your money off of the exchanges (hardware wallet).

Or, you can make your own bitcoin by hand. https://estudiobitcoin.com/do-you-trust-your-seed-dont-gener...

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one is talking about banning the concept of a transaction. It's about being able to pay for basic needs (rent, bills, food) via cash. This is not some impossible crazy thing. Cash was used for >90% of purchases including weekly bills not that long ago whilst skyscrapers and big business deals didn't involve briefcases of cash being thrown around.

How do you even pay for rent or utility bills with cash? I'm 39; so maybe too young to have experienced that but how does it even practically work? Did your landlord pop round once a month? For utility bills, did you go to the bank and ask them to transfer cash to a utility company; or maybe at a post office? Or did the utility company send someone around to collect cash payments?

Rent - Drop cash off at the Real Estate Agent/Property Manager

Bills - Pay in cash at the Post Office

In Australia I still see people in Post Offices waiting to pay their bills. Some simply haven't got out of the habbit yet..

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient. Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash. However, cash-acceptance laws were mostly motivated by the unbanked, who are now being used to justify the introduction of nation-state CBDCs. China's CBDC is two-tier and preserves retail bank competition. People close to t…

> Incorrect, the battle is partly won... Not in the slightest. You can mandate that people accept cash, but you can't force people to pay with it. The writing is on the wall; barring some sort of major social upheaval, cashless will be more dominant in the future. It's just too convenient. So let's figure out what kind of benign future we actually can build. "Everyone decides to use cash again" just isn't going to ha…

It can be more dominant. I pay most of my stuff cashless, but really, really love cash. I would always recommend to keep some on you for emergencies and as we have seen that government is quick to freeze accounts, it seems like a very good idea.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

I had my only personal UK bank account frozen without warning for weeks. The first I knew of it was when the call centre wouldnt answer the phone for 45mins from the shop where I had just tried to use the card. Had to abandon the process and go home. Next morning, call the bank call centre, do security get told they cant talk to me. The processes to get the account activated was interesting, I couldnt complain to the…

Or you could use two bank accounts? These things happen even day to day, sometimes cards fail, or a card reader acts up. I find it hard to see that the next logical leap from "one bank account in a country" is "global volatile decentralized currency with incredibly expensive transaction fees"

> its less bulky remembering a string than shipping tonnes of gold across borders.

Assuming you completely disregard the computation costs, yes.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#668
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China almost everything is WeChat/AliPay these days. People almost never use cash, even the street vendors use mobile payments. It's a problem because if you do something that Tencent doesn't like, they can just shut you out of your life, quite literally. And I'm not talking about politically sensitive stuff. At all. I'm talking about doing stuff that Tencent, the company, doesn't like. I'm talking about e.g. if t…

I tried to pay for a beer in China using cash (Yuan) and they refused. Credit card, no way. They just gave me the beer for free.

I wonder how this would impact tourism. Like, if I'm at the beginning stage of planning a trip and I'm choosing where I want to go then "weirdly requires setting up a payment app" is one of the criteria that puts a country quite far down my list.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#669
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the same thing with HSBC. I opened another bank account and keep a spare one going all the time. Also always keep £500 rolled up in £20 notes somewhere. And make sure you don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

> Also always keep £500 rolled up in £20 notes somewhere This is good advice, always have some cash around; in these uncertain times, I'd even argue to increase the amount. Make sure to have a record somewhere that you have it (a photo on your phone with e.g. ID and a dated newspaper? I dunno) so that IF you get your home broken into, you can prove it to your insurance. Of course, there's plenty of places to hide a s…

The "trick" in the UK here is to use gold coins, as they are a currency. There's a plethora of places that will bulk sell you gold coins to use as a store of wealth.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my only personal UK bank account frozen without warning for weeks. The first I knew of it was when the call centre wouldnt answer the phone for 45mins from the shop where I had just tried to use the card. Had to abandon the process and go home. Next morning, call the bank call centre, do security get told they cant talk to me. The processes to get the account activated was interesting, I couldnt complain to the…

This is probably good advice, just remember that crypto is also digital and totally transparent (mostly). If you obtain your crypto via an exchange, then your wallet can be positively linked to your physical person, and (eventually) prohibiting transactions by blacklisting wallets would be trivial. :( I imagine that is a ways off still because crypto is not _that_ mainstream, but I suspect the time to get started and…

The first generation of crypto is totally transparent, if people need to start using crypto to have political freedom of expression then no doubt more anonymous systems will gain prominence. There'll be something that draws broad parallels between the HTTP -> HTTPS transition.
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