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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#661

Post by jkingsbery »

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

As Russ Roberts details in https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRZf05zFBLXIKLD3blbnn... things are more complicated. A lot of the analysis about things being flat since 1970 makes assumptions about things being the same which aren't true.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#662

Post by gruez »

handrous wrote: post #626
dan-robertson wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An internet connected smartphone is not equivalent to the postal service (plus a pay phone or landline I guess). It may be that you use a computer or something else for the things that most people use smartphones for, wand so don’t realise how much they cover. You also didn’t mention having to go to the library (distance + fuel/car/travel costs + more time) for information, finding jobs from newspaper advertisements…

Affording Internet access and a cell phone is no problem for me, but the only reason I have either is because they're de facto required for my work, for my spouse's work, and for our kids' school. I do use it for other stuff since I have it anyway, but I absolutely see it as a ~$140/mo tax on participating in the economy. Stuff like streaming services only makes sense because I already have to pay that "tax"—it'd be…

>I absolutely see it as a ~$140/mo tax on participating in the economy

* for most people they'd be paying for the internet/cell phone regardless of whether it's required for their job or not. I doubt the pandemic pushed up internet adoption rate by much.

* $140/month seems to be on the high side. are you really paying that much for the bare essentials? Or are you paying for gigabit home internet and a 25GB/month cell plan?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#663

Post by whimsicalism »

nobody9999 wrote: post #595
whimsicalism wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or to formulate it more sharply, you couldn't be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 1970. You can be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 2021. Does that mean a cell phone is a bad thing? Of course not! So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they do…

>So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they don't will outweigh all of the material gains of the last half century. As an American, I don't subscribe to that thesis. At all. What I do see (as someone in his mid 50s) is that the biggest difference is that folks back then believed (and it actu…

? I absolutely agree with you. Inequality nowadays is quite bad, overall welfare could be much better if we weren't hamstrung by it.

But I don't see how this means I'm ideologically committed to the absurd thesis that we haven't seen quality of life improvements for the average person in the last half century - going from a time where we had only recently eliminated actual starvation in the US, schools were still basically segregated, inflation rampant, a draft, etc. etc.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#664

Post by gruez »

ModernMech wrote: post #641
zucker42 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conditions are close to a large scale revolution in the U.S., especially if you mean a violent revolution. First, there is not a high level of discord in society. Upheavals in the 70s were much more significant than those now. Second, most people blame one or the other political party for our problems, rather than the established order generally, making it more likely people will fight within the bo…

> making it more likely people will fight within the bounds of the existing political system. You are aware there was a violent disruption to the peaceful transfer of power last year, right? Since then, predicated on lies, partisans have changed the system to give political parties full control of election results; and the January 6th Committee has essentially uncovered and extensive coup plot that spans the White Ho…

>You are aware there was a violent disruption to the peaceful transfer of power last year, right? Since

A bunch of rioters doesn't really say much about the whole country erupting into revolution.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#665

Post by whimsicalism »

tsimionescu wrote: post #637
whimsicalism wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or to formulate it more sharply, you couldn't be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 1970. You can be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 2021. Does that mean a cell phone is a bad thing? Of course not! So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they do…

> So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they don't will outweigh all of the material gains of the last half century. The point is that there are many things you are now required to have to meaningfully participate in society, that were just not required in 1970. For example, to get vaccinate…

> to get vaccinated in my country for COVID, you need to access a web page, sign up using email, and you'll get an SMS notification when your registration is accepted.

I guarantee you that if you live in the developed world there are alternate pathways to getting vaxxed.

> someone who can't afford a mobile phone and internet connection may be poor in 2021, even if people without an internet connection or mobile phone were perfectly well off in 1970.

Funnily enough, a greater proportion of people have smartphones in the house today than had landlines then (60s & 70s), so even by this (absurd) metric where having a smartphone is equal to having a landline in terms of utility/welfare, we still have seen material improvements.

I am surprised that this has prompted such an argument here. I am curious as to the ideological motivations behind denying any progress in the last half century, this sort of rhetoric didn't seem nearly as popular even a few years ago.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#666

Post by fundad »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #214
natded wrote: post #69

It's time for the butcher's bill over the silly corona restrictions, and none will ever connect the two to together.

Most of the people here are from the professional class. Not real hurt as much by Covid restrictions. Some even benefitted by being able to work from home, they benefitted from election rule changes, from online censorship, and so on. So they don't really understand how much the restrictions are loathed by the working poor, who were already on the brink of bankruptcy pre covid restrictions.

Personally I didn’t benefit but my position allowed me to absorb the destruction of investment wealth and surprise child care expenses when schools closed. I also saw inflation coming as inputs and building materials shot up during the trade war. During the last president, I can’t imagine a company raising consumer costs and bragging about their pricing like they do now. They’d have a militia busting in with a gallows the very next day.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#668

Post by futharkshill »

enimodas wrote: post #239
futharkshill wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being overly dramatic. A hundred years ago, workers were treated so bad and had such bad living conditions it makes you sick just to hear about it. THAT lead to some violent revolutions in some countries, most of them young, undemocratic, or unstable. Some of them migrated 2,000 km from their home. People have food, shelter, entertainment.

Plenty of stories on /r/antiwork make me feel sick too

If you truly believe in all those stories and that they are indicative of society as a whole, I'm sorry, but consider getting of the internet (in a non rude way)

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#669

Post by ModernMech »

mellavora wrote: post #259
thatguy0900 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much time we have left for a real citizen revolution. Is is not difficult to imagine a near future with an automated and mechanized military and police with equipment that cannot go rogue. People in the US like to talk about guns as protections against state tyranny but not many have automated laser point defence for drone attacks.

I miss the days when people were better educated in civics. You are right, people talk about guns as protection against state tyrany, but they forget that the reason it works as protection against the state is because the person bringing violence against the state is willing to become a martyr. The more the state pays in blood, the more it looses it legitimacy.

Tyranny doesn’t happen by force. Tyranny doesn’t look like a burglar breaking into your house, and defeating tyranny doesn’t look like you gunning them down.

Tyranny is invited. It happens when you willingly open the door to someone who says they are going to solve all your problems, yet they never do.

They will always blame someone else when the problems aren’t solved, and you will believe them because you believed them once before. You won’t even recognize this as tyranny because you will be so outraged at the people the tyrant tells you are to blame for your problems. Slowly these people disappear, yet the problems remain.

Until one day the tyrant blames you for the problems of the world. And suddenly you recognize the tyranny for what it is. You reach for your gun but it does you no good. At this point the tyrant has turned everyone against you, just as he had turned you against others.

The process continues until there’s no one left to blame, and the tyrant at this point usually ends up hanging from a tree, or hiding in a hole in the ground.

But at no point in this process is a gun useful for preventing tyranny, unless you’re willing to actually be a martyr and kill the tyrant before anyone recognizes him as such. You’ll be labeled a murderer and sentenced to life in prison, but you will have prevented tyranny.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#670

Post by vlunkr »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #256
turbinerneiter wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The revolution will not come from the left. The "left" elites have forgotten the people, and the left in general is talking more about identity issues than class issues. The revolution will be more Trump than Bernie. Like in the early 1900, where more revolutions where fascist than communist.

Antisemitism is on the rise to. Before comments were removed, the recent movie Santa Inc had tens of thousands of comments abut elves. It's full on Gab, and even on Twitter from the left.

I'm sure there were some bad comments, but IMO this is a marketing ploy. Remember Ghostbusters 2016? The film-makers made a huge deal about the trailer being downvoted heavily, claiming it was all about sexism. When in reality the trailer and the movie were pretty mediocre. Seems like the same thing with Santa Inc. Have you watched the trailer? It looks terrible.
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