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The rise of never-ending job interviews

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Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#661
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experiences that people describe here just confirm something that many of us has learned a long time ago: NOBODY HAS "FIGURED OUT" HIRING ! Not Google, not Apple, no one. Sure, some places (and individual interviewers) are better at it than others. But at the end of the day, hiring is a deeply subjective process with lots of error and uncertainty built into it's nature. The subjectivity is intrinsic. Places like…

Or you hire people you know. Which isn't perfect, has it's own set of problems, and doesn't scale. But I can't really complain given it's how I've gotten every job (just a few) after grad school and my interviews have been mostly perfunctory.

Here on the other side of the FAANG spectrum working with and for other independent contractors and various small (5-20ish devs) consultancies, I'd say that hiring based on who you know and you your peers recomend is far and away the primary way work is done.

The good news is, it's a very open network. We have a highly active Meetup scene, pretty regular public hackathons, annual small software conferences and un-conferences, and coworking spaces are (well were) packed.

For the most part this has worked, people new to the community are able to find jobs and the people hiring them know what hey are getting. But also like you say, this doesn't really scale to larger operations.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my startup I interviewed a 48 years old senior Java programmer with excellent resume, who took 1hr to write a String.contains(), it only worked for the requested 4 letters, didn’t work if a letter was repeated twice, and didn’t work with Chinese characters. At least it had the JUnit. I asked an employee to do it too and he made his code pass the JUnit in 6 minutes. The candidate hated the interview, claiming it wa…

But which is more likely? 1. The candidate was a complete and utter fraud and their previous (and apparently well-regarded) employers were too stupid or negligent to notice this, wasting literally millions of dollars (48-21 * $100,000+). 2. Something about the interview failed to let this person demonstrate the skills that had kept them employed for two decades. Maybe their mind went blank under pressure, or at the e…

Unfortunately, both are fairly likely.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had an in-person interview where they gave me a sheet of printed code and asked me to point out the syntax errors. Some interviewers are absolutely insane.

A past employer of mine used to have one of these. It was a true work of art: around two dozen lines of code with something to discuss in EVERY SINGLE LINE, ranging from dumb syntax errors to logic errors to problems of overall design. Made for some great conversations.

The problem I see is that it probably looks really dense and complex the first time a candidate sees it. This is not a great way to start the interview. To me it comes across like "find Waldo in the next 30 seconds. Also there's a bunch of other characters hidden in there. Go!" We all know what we're looking for (kind of) but it's a very stressful approach. It might work better if you paired and wrote this crazy code, and looked to them to identify issues as you built it up.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's not in a Linux inode? Wow, even if you were hiring filesystem experts to write filesystems I think there are a million better ways to ask that question. e.g.: "Hey, talk me through the design of a really basic filesystem, it needs to support hardlinks, symlinks, files and directories."

I'm not experienced in tech interviews nor knowledgeable about inodes ... but your question and the interviewer's question seem like they're functionally equivalent. They presumably don't just want you to say "names", they're expecting you to talk about what is in a Linux inode, what a directory is, etc., and they can drop in further questions to prompt you if you don't "talk me through the design of a basic filesyst…

I think there are multiple things wrong with the original question:

- It's unclear what they're trying to judge. Do they want to know if someone understands filesystems on an intimate level? Do they want to know if someone knows how hardlinks work? Do they want to know if someone knows what fstat returns? Are they trying to trick someone since an inode in many contexts is just a number? This is an unnecessary level of uncertainty for a question and encourages random tangents which may not be the answer the interviewer is looking for or cares about.

- Someone who has studied google's standard questions which this apparently may be one of [1] would be able to answer this without understanding the implications, what does that tell you about the candidate?

- If you want the candidate to go into a tangent about filesystems in order to figure out how well they understand them, this is as mentioned before a really stupidly open ended question.

- If someone did understand you were talking about inodes, they may be of the opinion that the inode contains a reference to the file's contents and as such contains the file contents. In the case of a directory this means that an inode "contains" the file names of files in that directory. This makes the question a leading question which is trying to lead to what would be a wrong answer from that person's point of view. How do you answer a leading question when you disagree with what it's trying to lead you to?

If you want to determine if someone understands filesystems on an intimate level. I think my question would be far better at elucidating that.

If you want to understand if someone knows how hardlinks work, I can't come up with a question off the top of my head but I doubt that "what is not in an inode" is anywhere close to the best one.

If you want to trick someone, go ahead, this is a good question. Likewise if you want to screen for people who have googled "Google SRE Interview Questions" and memorised the answers.

[1] http://www.gwan.com/blog/20160405.html ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12701272 )

Regarding the above reference:

I've spoken to someone who interviewed for an SRE position and she said the questions were very similar to an early phone interview she had. She said the interviewer did not know what they were talking about and were just going off an answer sheet. So I don't think the interview in this case is representative of one for a Director of Engineering but is representative of an early screening interview for SRE. In which case anything BUT the expected answer to the question "What is not in an inode" would be considered incorrect.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#665
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inode question is tricky. It is certainly not something an employer should take for granted you have memorized. But the answer can be reached by reasoning, at least if you know something about filesystems and the concept of hard links. Which you probably do if you have read the "ln" man page. It is still a pretty poor question, I remember getting a similar kind of question when I passed through the (at the time,…

If you ever carried a canister of gasoline, you'd notice it to be uncannily light. It may have been a practical experience question.

> canister....uncannily light...

I see what you did there

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#666

My one and only Google interview went this way years ago. Each round they'd send me more books to study, which frankly I couldn't be bothered to read given the circumstances. My experience ended when an interviewer in round 3 or 4 asked me an obviously scripted question. I answered sarcastically, he got peeved, and I never heard from them again. I'm not claiming I'm Google caliber, whatever that means. Obviously I'm…

A lot of people tend to forget that hiring, certainly in software engineering, is a two-way process. The employer assesses "is this a good candidate?"

But a clever candidate assesses "is this a good employer?". Even during the hiring process.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#667

My one and only Google interview went this way years ago. Each round they'd send me more books to study, which frankly I couldn't be bothered to read given the circumstances. My experience ended when an interviewer in round 3 or 4 asked me an obviously scripted question. I answered sarcastically, he got peeved, and I never heard from them again. I'm not claiming I'm Google caliber, whatever that means. Obviously I'm…

I had a similarly bad Google experience that I've talked about before[0] but will copy here: I was asked to do a task that eventually boiled down to a topological sort, and I thought the question consisted of recognizing that the answer was a topological sort and moving on because it was over the phone. However, that was not the case. The interviewer wanted me to code it all out over Google Docs, but I didn't remembe…

I've never written a sort from scratch since my college days, over 30 years ago. Also never had a job interview that asked me do to so, or any other coding questions. I'm planning more for retirement than a next job at this point, but I shake my head at what my younger colleagues need to go through these days for the opportunity to write JavaScript with IDEs that do most of the work for you.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#668
I've done two long ones - McKinsey Digital (~7 interviews over 3 months) and Bloomberg (~5 interviews over 1 month).

Whilst it was dragging, I do feel they were both adequate processes for me to learn about the companies and the role, and for them to get to know me and my fit for the team. I ended up learning quite a lot about myself, too, and got useful feedback out of the process.

It also was during the pandemic where organisations where finding their feet with remote hiring; I reckon in a pre-pandemic session, they would've been compressed into sessions together.

The scheduling, and comms about it weren't always amazing, but that's down to the recruiters rather than the hiring team, imho.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had an in-person interview where they gave me a sheet of printed code and asked me to point out the syntax errors. Some interviewers are absolutely insane.

I have done this. Is it really such an insane idea? Makes for a nice break from "what does this code do"? You need some technical "anchor" to make for more concrete discussion points.

Would you accept "my build toolchain and linter will catch all of these syntax and stylistic errors." as an answer? 'Cause that's what all your devs are going to do IRL.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#670
I work at Big Ass Corporation, Inc. in the US (there’s a very strong chance you use one or more of our services). Hiring is fucking awful. First of all it’s nearly impossible to get approval for a req in the first place. I’m actively looking to leave just because of that…but that’s a different rant than this one.

Once a req is approved then it goes out to the team to disperse as well as hr. Some roles get handed off to the critical search team if the hiring manager pushes hard enough. But that doesn’t really matter.

We get flooded with candidates. Almost every one of them could probably do the job so we have to figure out who could do it best through the interview process. I personally never ask stupid gotcha puzzle questions because those annoy me as much as they do most folks here. I ask people to talk about their experience as it relates to the role. Usually this means I ask about how they solved a truly difficult problem at work, what made it difficult and how they were able to overcome it. Then I like to get into the technical stuff of what they implemented and why. Mostly I just like letting people who are proud of something they’ve done get a chance to talk about it.

Anyway we’re supposed to score people based on these arbitrary metrics like longevity (how long we think they will stay) and communication ability (this is very, very close to being racist…draw your own conclusions).

I never score people. Managers ask me why and I say because I don’t interview spreadsheets.

Anyway I’m one of usually 4 interviews. I interview by myself and the rest are all panel interviews. And once you finish the last panel that’s the last you hear from us unless you get an offer. I hate it.

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