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The rise of never-ending job interviews

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Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#601
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'm pretty sure FAANG hiring is just a random walk. Every now again someone happens to have looked at all the questions they ask recently for that particular interview cycle (or avoid the trap ones like that) and that person gets hired (and then put on the ad targeting team or whatever).

> At this point I'm pretty sure FAANG hiring is just a random walk. Every now again someone happens to have looked at all the questions they ask recently for that particular interview cycle (or avoid the trap ones like that) and that person gets hired (and then put on the ad targeting team or whatever). This might actually be part of the retention strategy. If everyone who works at FAANG knows that they're somewhat l…

I'll just +1 this as a datapoint.

I am not looking externally until I'm sure I'm done at AWS. I've done 80+ interviews here, and I'm consistently amazed by what drives people to say "The candidate wasn't up to the coding bar". As far as I can tell, you are almost never up to the coding bar. I think we interview so many people just to remind ourselves that if we leave, we aren't getting back in.

Just to head off the "So why don't I argue for change?" questions, I'd rather work on self improvement than fight tooth and nail to make the hiring process a little bit better. I'll let somebody else add that to their promo doc.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#602

> That’s a question Mike Conley, 49, grappled with earlier this year. The software engineer, based in Indiana, US, had been seeking a new role after losing his job during the pandemic This is ageism. I hope he realized this after 10 6 rounds of interviews. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19507732

Not to invalidate ageism, there are many threads about younger people's interviewing experience that match this. The competition (other candidates) are doing much more than that, and also studying and practicing leetcode much longer than I am willing to.

Well, one way that this works, is that older folks, that have gotten used to working in an environment of mutual respect, and have some modicum of self-respect, are less likely to put up with BS, as opposed to someone younger, who may have come from a ... less professional climate.

The idea is to drive out older, less-pliant potential employees, in favor of newer ones, who can be molded into a shape the corporation prefers.

Have you ever seen a couple that has gotten married later in life? Many times, it may be a second (or more) time for one or both of them.

They need to make massive compromises. Both have gotten used to supporting themselves, and keeping their own counsel. They generally both have a lot of property, maybe grown kids, careers, etc. Usually, they don't actually need each other, for more than emotional support. They each do fine, on their own. It's a relationship of equals.

It can be a challenge to make it work, but when it does, it's amazing. I have known many couples like that.

I understand why corporations don't want to put effort into working with older folks, but it can be well worth it.

So many times, when I see these awful, Jurassic-scale disasters, made by companies that are staffed exclusively by younger folks, I say to myself "That was a really great idea, but they completely pooched the release. Why didn't anybody raise any red flags?"

The answer is generally, that no one on staff had enough experience to understand the ramifications of many decisions, and often, they were afraid to countermand ideas put forth by their superiors.

Couple that with 20-something CEOs, who are often fearfully insecure, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#603

I'm starting to think these interviews are not about skill, but about resiliency. It filters out people with (occasional) physical/mental health issues, difficult/many kids or other difficult life situations etc. Which is fair I suppose, companies would prefer perfectly healthy 26 year-olds that can dedicate their life to the company without burning out.

I think "resiliency" is a positive way of phrasing it. In my opinion, it's more of a case of checking if you can fit in and put up with corporate BS.

I also doubt that companies are on purpose designing the interviews to be this long. It's probably more of the case of "more is better" thinking and no one being able to make a decision by themselves to streamline the process.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#604
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's funny is that I specifically remember a conference where some library that a google employee wrote was terrible. The one google developer talking about it, disavowed any responsibility of it. Whatever metrics that google is using in their interviews have probably become worthless in the past decade as people game the system.

In my startup I interviewed a 48 years old senior Java programmer with excellent resume, who took 1hr to write a String.contains(), it only worked for the requested 4 letters, didn’t work if a letter was repeated twice, and didn’t work with Chinese characters. At least it had the JUnit. I asked an employee to do it too and he made his code pass the JUnit in 6 minutes. The candidate hated the interview, claiming it wa…

But which is more likely?

1. The candidate was a complete and utter fraud and their previous (and apparently well-regarded) employers were too stupid or negligent to notice this, wasting literally millions of dollars (48-21 * $100,000+).

2. Something about the interview failed to let this person demonstrate the skills that had kept them employed for two decades. Maybe their mind went blank under pressure, or at the end of a long day. Maybe they got hung up on something trivial (that a quick search—-or nudge from the interviewer—-would have resolved), or the question was unclear.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes a lot of sense, you could solve all these questions without knowing specific algorithms as long as you are good at problem solving - which is, I assume, the intent of the process. You could solve all these questions as long as you are good at problem solving, *given enough time*. However, with tight time constraints and perfomance pressure, the only way you could solve all these questions is memorizing and pr…

There was a hilarious rant about a FAANG hiring question that was something like: "Write an algorithm for detecting if a linked list has any loops in it, in linear time, using a constant amount of memory." Apparently the correct answer is to use "Robert W. Floyd's tortoise and hare algorithm", which is trivial to explain and code. The catch? It took a decade of computer science research between the original statement…

it took a few million years until Newton figured out basic mechanics. but i don't think it's unreasonable to ask a junior engineer some basic kinematics questions!

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#606
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your IDE can check your syntax. For people who have to switch between languages regularly, precise syntax memorization is difficult and a waste of time.

While I understand where you are coming from, I disagree. IDE tools are great performance enhancers, but they can also be crutches. I would always expect a professional software developer to be able to parse some code on a page and point out its syntax errors (as well as suggest edits). edit; here I am thinking about something more substancial then just a missing ';' or a lack of a closing "

> they can also be crutches

Yes, they are absolutely crutches. All great tools, libraries, and abstractions are crutches. I want programming to be easier for myself and my employees.

The only problem with a crutch is that you might end up not having it when you need it. That's not an issue in this case.

> here I am thinking about something more substancial then just a missing ';' or a lack of a closing "

The original example that I was responded to was about an interviewer who expected their code to compile. That would include incredibly pedantic things.

For example, if you're the kind of person who uses single quotes in JavaScript and then you're suddenly writing a different language where '' is different from "" and `` and $"" and whatever, you could easily make an unimportant mistake that prevents compiling.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#607
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your IDE can check your syntax. For people who have to switch between languages regularly, precise syntax memorization is difficult and a waste of time.

An IDE can check your syntax, sure. It can even catch low-level bad practices ("you're making a database call in a tight loop, this is horribly inefficient"). This is, in my opinion, basic tool usage: warn of LHF early. Last time I saw one of those test-ish pieces of code, though, an IDE+static analysis would have caught about 1/2 of the problems; the other half required actual thinking (not statistical pattern match…

> "don't trust user data, that should not go there even though the call signature matches, you're holding it backwards."

Good type systems do this, although it's beside the point.

The point I was making is that the IDE remembers unimportant things so that my only concern is the actual thinking part. It abstracts away the minor and sometimes very important syntax differences.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#608
On my team, I inherited an interview process with 7 steps. It's a long one for sure, and it's not a process I can change. But as a hiring manager I mitigate issues brought up in this article by doing a few really easy things:

1. On my first chat with a candidate, I layout the entire interview process. I acknowledge that it is long and I preemptively thank them for going through the process and say that we value their time. I make sure our recruiters can reiterate the process as clearly as I can.

2. I let the candidate know that at any time if they want to pull out, that is a-ok, and that they are welcome to apply again in the future in good standing. I also tell them that during our coding assignment, we really mean it when we say it's ok to ask for more time, and that we don't judge them negatively.

3. I tell the candidate that if at any point we decide to decline, that I will send them a written letter of feedback so as to make the process worth their time. This isn't always easy, but it's always been appreciated. Sometimes it is hard to write these letters, how do you tell someone multiple interviewers didn't like them? I do it by pressing our interviewers to state clearly what didn't come across well, and then I relay those things to the candidate. Sometimes even still the letters probably aren't super satisfying to the declined candidates, but I do my best and hope everyone realizes that job hunting in general is rarely satisfying.

Basically, transparency, honesty and specifically thanking them have gone a long way for me. I fully understand that an underfunded/understaffed startup might balk at the feedback part, especially when lawyers can get involved. But offering up items #1 and #2 to candidates should just be table stakes of your hiring process.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#609
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is notorious for this. I have been headhunted by them multiple times in the past. The last time their recruiter called me and explained me that after the usual screening and HR calls I would need to pass multiple increasingly complex technical interview rounds - and then THEY will decide on the role and project I am best suited for (if at all). I have flatly asked the guy whether they are being serious and tur…

> even the HR guy on the phone recognized it makes no sense to call me over it ... Well, he had a quota to fill so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. There are situations where the market can be spectacularly efficient. Outsourcing hiring to third parties is definitely not one of them. In this case, big companies can afford broken interview process, because it's not their time that's being wasted, and the inertia of a big corporation can hi…

facebook had me as someone who could fill their quota for 1st rounds etc I sent an email asking them not to do this twice now. It is quite funny though, because every time I bring up NYC being the only possible location for me, the recruiter usually grumbles says its "tough to get into NYC" and then usually I get that the engineering manager "doesn't like that many people" I wonder how many people have been rejected working for Facebook because one person in NY doesn't like them? I mean that person might be amazing, but still seems limiting. They do fine anyway though, most of the hard parts have already been done long ago at Facebook I would suppose.....

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#610

I think a big part of the problem is how much software engineers are being paid now. 4, 5 or more rounds is not unheard of for a VP/CTO role. Companies are acting like that Intermediate Developer is a critical role because the pay is making it seem like a critical role, they are making what would have been a Director salary within institutional memory. I just had candidate that was already getting paid what would hav…

Reminds me of this MonkeyUser (love that comic): https://www.monkeyuser.com/2020/new-hire/
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