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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#661

Post by smashingfiasco »

threeseed wrote: post #641
culturalzero wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

Be serious. (1) You really think Apple cares about the discussions on one thread of Hacker News ? (2) Even if they did how would it be an effective use of resources. It may shift a handful of people at most. When instead that time could be spent speaking with journalists or writing press releases that could actually shift a lot of people. (3) It's a slippery slope to keep calling everyone you disagree with shills or…

Oh, they definitely do keep tabs and actively participate in places like HN.

You must have missed seeing this a few years ago...

> Members of Apple PR seek tabloid photos of celebrities holding iPhones, while others read Apple-focused blogs actively, and keep tabs on prominent Apple beat writers using anonymized social media accounts. A former Apple PR employee notes that the team enjoys being an “overall watchdog,” monitoring what the media is saying about the company every day.

https://9to5mac.com/2014/08/29/part-3-strategies-the-art-of-...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#662

Post by valuearb »

germanier wrote: post #491
valuearb wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you are missing the point of the EU. No company should be forced to base in a country to sell there. Apple pays huge amounts of taxes in Germany despite not being based there. It just doesn’t pay much “income tax” because it’s not based there.

No, I understand the purpose just fine. It isn't about taxes at all. All EU tax rules were just bolted on to fix the most obvious unfair results of other regulation. For example, I am customer of a German branch of a French bank. The company is based in Paris and all contracts clearly state that. The actual service is provided from a German office building. That's where almost all employees responsible for the German…

Apple doesn't build phones or computers or software in germany. It sells stuff built elsewhere. Why isn't Porsche paying US Income taxes on stuff it builds in Germany?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#663

Post by valuearb »

pwinnski wrote: post #622
valuearb wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tax things you want less of, not more if. Taxing corporate profits is a tax on investment. Apples actual income tax rate is in excess of 60% if they repatriate. First, they have to pay corporate income taxes in all their foreign countries. Then, they owe 9% to state of California on what’s left. Then they owe 35% to the US treasury on what’s left. Then they pay the remainder as dividends, and shareholders owe up…

This is not accurate. Currently they are paying between 1 and 7% on income, as the Paradise Papers document. If they re-patriated every bit of income to the U.S., they would owe an additional 35%. That brings the tax rate to 36-42% (actually slightly less since the 35% would be on the 99-93% remaining), and that's that. What they then choose to do with the money after that, and what taxes individuals pay on their own…

Nope, Apple pays a world-wide rate of 24.6%.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple...

And the real rate is actually higher because it doesn't count the deferred taxes they owe and will pay when they repatriate.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#664

Post by lobster_johnson »

josejuanisaac wrote: post #390
loceng wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

“They are doing it too” is legally a valid excuse. The way legal disputes get settled usually is based on the outcome of precedent legal cases and how they relate to the current case. Your moral outrage (and the outrage caused by paradise papers type reports) is just a failure to see the world for what it is. An ant can complain all day about the size of the mammoth, complain that it’s unfair that it’s got a fur coat…

But that's not how legal systems works. If you're caught running a red light, you can't argue that "many other people are doing it, too". Similarly, if a dozen cars run a red light at the same time, and only you are stopped, the best you can do is argue discrimination; you still broke the law, and you're still culpable, and it's the police's prerogative to catch whomever they can.

That's also not how legal precedent works. Legal precedents in the US are derived from court decisions, not whether something is occurring en masse. I'm not even sure why precedents work, given that there's no "case" here.

Your misplaced cynicism about moral outrage becomes more obvious if you replace tax evasion with something much worse, e.g. child labour or human trafficking, something which is in fact prevalent, though probably not within Apple's sphere. But the moral outrage exists because these papers expose something so blatantly immoral that people are genuinely surprised and dismayed at the sheer scale at which rich companies and people are stockpiling money in secret. We know human trafficking occurs every day, all over the world; if someone uncovers a big network of, say, politicans involved in this trafficking, aren't we right to be outraged? Is it a "failure to see the world for what it is" just because it's accepted that evil things happen? How blasé can one get?

Re "don't you think they are entitled to try to save as much of it as they can?", this confuses morality with legality. As David Mitchell eloquently points out [1], the current systems are effectively a tax on conscience. Taxes are traditionally designed to incentivize good behaviour (e.g. tax breaks on saved pensions, because that benefits both you and society), but the system currently incentivizes bad behaviour among the select few who have the means and lack of scruples to do it, penalizing those who lack the means and are conscientious about their taxes.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc8epam4NyY

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#665

Post by valuearb »

jamesblonde wrote: post #540
valuearb wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tax things you want less of, not more if. Taxing corporate profits is a tax on investment. Apples actual income tax rate is in excess of 60% if they repatriate. First, they have to pay corporate income taxes in all their foreign countries. Then, they owe 9% to state of California on what’s left. Then they owe 35% to the US treasury on what’s left. Then they pay the remainder as dividends, and shareholders owe up…

But you know that even if you eliminated corporate tax, companies would not pay out profits as dividends, if there was a loophole around it. And there are loads, of course. Share buybacks, for example.

Yes, you'd have to also tax capital gains at ordinary rates to capture this. I think capital gains should only have inflation adjustments to their basis, they don't need their own special rates.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#666

Post by tooltalk »

zajd wrote: post #406
nickpp wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's denying the contribution of the govt $$$ to the creation of the PC. But I've seen computers build by governments. They were slow, huge, power hungry, expensive behemoths. They sucked. We're a long way from there. And free market brought us all the way here.

What about the internet? The highway system?

They both were built in the name of defense and national security during the cold war. You are not suggesting that we be in a permanent state of wars to promote gov't funding of R&D?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#667

Post by valuearb »

dontreact wrote: post #383
valuearb wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be illegal and unethical for Apple to pay more taxes than it owes. That money doesn’t belong to Tim Cook, but to Apple shareholders.

Tim Cook has made statements in the past that they stick to the letter and the spirit of the law. The least they could do is report these tax loopholes: post them publicly to make it easier for the government to close them. Instead, they are kept a secret. Why do you think that is?

Apple takes advantage of no loopholes. By law profits in international subsidiaries aren't taxed in the US until they are paid to the US company. Apple is simply keeping the already taxed profits overseas in the lowest tax jurisdiction until the US gives them a repatriation discount.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#668

Post by valuearb »

germanier wrote: post #509
valuearb wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pay huge amounts of taxes to Germany in VAT and employment taxes. Their income taxes should be paid where they are based, Germany is trying to double dip here. Apples accounting for where profits are located has to be approved by tax authorities.

The point is that they don't pay those taxes where they are based either. Additionally, they create some value in Germany (a small share but still large on Apple scales). Taxing income derived from that is not double-dipping.

They are the largest US taxpayer. They are the worlds largest taxpayer. They absolutely pay taxes where they are based, and where they aren't based. Their worldwide tax rate is 24.6%, one of the highest in the world.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#669

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

tskaiser wrote: post #455
Clanan wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility. A company is, after all, just a group of people. This should be a very strong tactic considering how liberal Silicon Valley is. The major players preach constantly about progressive ideals, yet fail to do more than the minimum when push comes to shove. My business partner and I purposefully pay normal taxes, avoiding accountants' crazy tax re…

IANAL but it is my understanding that if those tax reduction schemes are legal many companies are legally bound by their stock holders to exploit them, or else be found negligent in their duties.

They're only thus bound if increasing stakeholder returns over time is an explicit condition of their contract (which I imagine is the case for executive contracts in many if not most public companies, though I don't know - can anyone confirm?)

But there's nothing in the (US, at least) legal definition of a fiduciary that proscribes increasing share holder profits by any means necessary. That's simply a convenient myth spread to normalize cutthroat, profit-seeking behavior at all levels of business.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#670

Post by taway_1212 »

tooltalk wrote: post #555
taway_1212 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware of the fact that Sillicon Valley was created by the US Government?

Are you referring to the fact that SV was initially founded by the defense industry -- which was in turn all funded by the gov't -- in its early days?

Yes.
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