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Plain Vanilla Web

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Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#651

Post by DrScientist »

yCombLinks wrote: post #592
DrScientist wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we really comparing 2 tier to three tier here? ( With the web effectively 3 tier by default ). That old VB code that queried the database directly wouldn't work well over a non-local network. ie there is a bit of apples and oranges comparison here.

How it talks to the backend is irrelevant here. That has zero to do with the fact that the DOM was imply not designed for dynamic application layouts.

Sure DOM is retained mode graphics - however as I said, if you want to immediate mode - then canvas is available.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#652

Post by ardleon »

leptons wrote: post #501
Swizec wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on a site that was built without frameworks with just a sprinkle of jQuery on top of a traditional MVC framework. It worked great but then the business grew and the software became bigger than what fits in 1 engineer’s head. We now have lots of issues that need fixing. A good example are pages that take 5 seconds to load because they have to do so much, then you submit a form, and the page reload takes 5 secon…

>A good example are pages that take 5 seconds to load because they have to do so much, then you submit a form, and the page reload takes 5 seconds to go through but there is no UI feedback so you press the button a few more times because maybe it didn’t work? Then you get an error because the first action worked but the subsequent actions failed due to uniqueness constraints. It's been standard practice for at least…

Or disable the component completely until you receive a response.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#653

Post by IIsi50MHz »

HappMacDonald wrote: post #611
Juliate wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t have a pay-later business without an amount of non-payment, which has to be compensated by higher prices (which other customers shoulder). People who never experienced high-trust and customs societies cannot grasp why and how it works infinitely better than low-trust ones. But granted, all it takes is a few determined bad faith actors to break high-trust, when they are not vehemently and swiftly rejected…

I don't know if I would classify "consume first, pay later" as high trust. Example: Hotel "honor bars".

I'd expect the hotel to already have a payment method on file, and possibly have pre-cleared a large charge to hedge against consumption or damage (with unused portion of the charge removed during checkout).

Contrast with the typical restaurant.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#654

Post by Juliate »

IIsi50MHz wrote: post #653
HappMacDonald wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I would classify "consume first, pay later" as high trust. Example: Hotel "honor bars".

I'd expect the hotel to already have a payment method on file, and possibly have pre-cleared a large charge to hedge against consumption or damage (with unused portion of the charge removed during checkout). Contrast with the typical restaurant.

Hotels generally handle this very graciously, having indeed a pre-clearance on a payment method.

Moreover, trespassers, in addition to pursuit, often get flagged in a shared « do not host » book file across hotel lines.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#655

Post by Juliate »

int_19h wrote: post #543
Juliate wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t have a pay-later business without an amount of non-payment, which has to be compensated by higher prices (which other customers shoulder). People who never experienced high-trust and customs societies cannot grasp why and how it works infinitely better than low-trust ones. But granted, all it takes is a few determined bad faith actors to break high-trust, when they are not vehemently and swiftly rejected…

For this to work, you need society as a whole to participate in enforcement. But we have created an environment where this kind of thing is unthinkable, not even because people won't do it, but because they will only create legal trouble for themselves if they try. So the modus operandi for your average citizen in Western societies in general and US in particular is to not get involved and leave it all to law enforce…

It is totally thinkable, and it does happen. However, you get to this by vetting people/customers in.

This is why some things can’t be found/bought without hetting the right path/contacts.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#656

Post by sneak »

int_19h wrote: post #573
sneak wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, TLS should always be required. We should be moving away from plaintext anything on the wire, if for no other reason than privacy (but also for integrity, injecting scripts into an HTTP response is a nasty attack surface).

TLS shouldn't be required for as long as it remains a heavily centralized thing; to require it would give undue power to root certificate authorities.

TLS is not centralized, there are many different root CAs, and you can additionally install your own.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#657

Post by BrendanEich »

rhet0rica wrote: post #294
someothherguyy wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you writing it so many times? Write an alias in 10 seconds? function getId(v) {return document.getElementById(v)} Dev tools allows $ $$, dunno, make a macro?

But if Brendan Eich wanted us to have a shorter name, he would have given us a shorter name! We must not defy the system!

As I said to Lex Fridman, I was influenced by AWK. Ragrets!

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#658

Post by ardleon »

sgbeal wrote: post #568
hdjrudni wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to refute the "the constant churn of new frontend frameworks to learn". If you just stuck with React since 2015, they've only had 4 major versions since then and every ver they deprecate only a few things and then you have a full release cycle to migrate to the new hot thing. It's probably the best upgrade paths of any of the libs I work with. But you're not wrong about there being many ways to write compone…

> I wanted to refute the "the constant churn of new frontend frameworks to learn". If you just stuck with React since 2015, they've only had 4 major versions since then and every ver they deprecate only a few things and then you have a full release cycle to migrate to the new hot thing. Contrast that with non-framework JS/HTML, where _you_ decide how long it lives and how often you need to upgrade (or not). Having to…

It happened to me with a personal project, I abandoned it for about 2 years and one day I decided to take it up again to add some features and when I did npm install I almost died.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#659

Post by andoando »

int_19h wrote: post #549
andoando wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with all this vanilla showcases is they are dead ass simple pages with the most basic layouts and user interaction. Shit just show me how long it takes you to create a nice reactive table with search or a form with proper labels, user interaction, validation, errors, etc Why would I implement that all from scratch when I can install svelte install a UI library and add a couple lines of code, all with a 25k…

Does your "nice reactive table with search" retain its current state (including scrolling!) if I click on a link that opens another page, and then back out? Does it let me link to page N of results? As a user, I find that, in practice, it's these kinds of things that frustrate me far more than the lack of instant reactivity, whereas simple form with a submit button and a paginated table below works just fine.

Implementing state isnt very difficult.

I think youre thinking of a very static use case again. Link to page number doesnt make too much sense when the data changes (and do you really want to refresh the whole page just to change the table data?), but yes thats easy to implement to.

It would just look something like let pageNum = params.page

Now think about if you need to implement a more complex table in an admin UI that lets you filter / sort, delete/add rows, etc. Thats where reactivity is really really nice. All you have to do is something like items = items.filter(i -> i.name.startsWith(input)) and youre done.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#660

Post by _heimdall »

lmm wrote: post #609
_heimdall wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a language meant to focus only on styling need to be Turing complete?

It doesn't necessarily need to be Turing complete, but CSS in its current form is harder to understand, debug or make sense of than most Turing-complete languages.

Do you mean because of how its designed to cascade, and all the details of priority that requires? Or something else?

Personally I've never found the language itself hard to understand other than issues where a style somewhere else bleeds in and I have to hope browser dev tools can point me in the right direction.

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