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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#651

Post by fluoridation »

mustache_kimono wrote: post #646
fluoridation wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I read it, "the losing side of history" refers to insisting on using C, possibly at all. The last part about the "world moving forward towards memory-safe languages" doesn't suggest a limited scope for the statement. The thread was not about Rust drivers, it was about adding Rust code to the DMA module. I.e. about mixing two different languages in a single module, thus requiring being knowledgeable about both lang…

> The thread was not about Rust drivers, it was about adding Rust code to the DMA module. I.e. about mixing two different languages in a single module AFAIK this is false. The patch was CCed to the maintainer as FYI, but all the code was in a Rust a module binding to the C DMA interface. If I'm wrong, show me the code. See the discussion here: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/1/9/398

I'm just going by what was mentioned in the thread. If that interpretation is wrong, the thread makes no sense.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#653

Post by gkbrk »

philistine wrote: post #279
qiqitori wrote: post #172

"we were still stuck without DP Alt Mode (a feature which required deep reverse engineering, debugging, and kernel surgery to pull off, and which, if it were to be implemented properly and robustly, would require a major refactor of certain kernel subsystems or perhaps even the introduction of an entirely new subsystem)." Few maintainers care about the platform in question (to whom it's more a curiosity like maybe 68…

Are you saying that PCs do not usually have the ability to plug into a monitor, to charge, and to connect to a USB hub for the rest of your devices from a single USB-C port? You guys still plug three cables each time you sit at a desk?

My Linux laptop can charge, provide USB ports, connect to my monitor and provide Ethernet connectivity from a single cable.

This laptop came out 7 years ago, but I'm sure much older models can do this just fine too.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#654

Post by OJFord »

opan wrote: post #530
vessenes wrote: post #23

First of all, yay Asahi — one of the great modern hacking / hacker stories in my opinion. Second, what’s the drama? I read the blog, and I’m guessing that on top of being burned out, which sucks, Marcan didn’t like a kernel developer using the phrase “we are the thin blue line” implies he’s politically liberal, in the US sense. He then says he may have been toxic on Mastodon, which might have got him secretly cancele…

>Marcan didn’t like a kernel developer using the phrase “we are the thin blue line” implies he’s politically liberal, in the US sense. From what I saw on urbandictionary, it seems more likely to be something cops in high crime areas in the UK say.

Anywhere really, it's just the phrase 'there's a thin [or fine] line between...' modified to say the police are that line, between lawful order & disorder.

Apparently it's political in the US, I have no idea, but as I understand it the maintainer just means 'I am here reviewing the change to keep the kernel in good order'.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#655

Post by popcalc »

rat87 wrote: post #421
thw8419 wrote: post #97

The Rust situation was handled badly. Two languages (one of which has panics and all sorts of version issues) in one kernel are clearly not viable. Linus should have put his foot down and mandated C instead of stringing people along. That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. Perhaps he was forced to do it. In many areas, sanity has returned, so perhaps we can get clearer messaging again…

> That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. No clue what you could mean by this >Perhaps he was forced to do it. By whom? Linus is the one who decides these things.

The court of public opinion possibly.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#656

Post by armchairhacker »

-__---____-ZXyw wrote: post #447

One aspect of all of this which I haven't seen directly addressed[0] is the question of what might be going on with Torvalds and the Rust Foundation from a longer term, dare I say "political" standpoint. Torvalds seems to usually position himself as a kind of anti-political, code-is-code type, but then, perhaps there's more to him and to this story? There's an awful lot of money and power associated with operating sy…

I've heard "Linus Torvalds has refused to decide whether to accept or reject Rust, and this is a leadership failure".

Maybe I'm don't know the situation enough, but I think he's not deciding because he has no idea. The "wrong" option may create far more consequences than the "right" one (so he can't e.g. flip a coin) but he has no idea which is "right".

Torvalds has spent so long working with C, even if he went out of his way to learn Rust, he'd never have as much experience to get an unbiased view of both. Perhaps he's hoping people who are younger and have more equal experience, but who are still smart and experienced, will shift the project towards the correct decision. Unfortunately that's not happening, because as a solid BDFL, he's the only one who can make a shift of that size. But either shift could be a huge stain on Linux's history, and he has no idea which, so he's stuck in a horrible conundrum.

If that's the case, keeping in mind that Linux is Torvalds's life's work, even if doing nothing is itself a bad choice, I don't blame him.

Regardless, since Torvalds can't decide, I think the community has to come together and 1) agree on a consensus mechanism then reach a consensus (e.g. vote on it), or 2) come up with a magic third option which Torvalds can accept*.

e.g. "integrate Rust into the kernel, but ensure that all future Rust compatibility issues are handled by Rust developers, even if they are caused by C code changes, through the commitment of a team of general-purpose Rust developers large enough relative to the number of C developers". I don't know if one can really ensure there are enough Rust developers to not block the C developers, but Rust is very popular and maybe growing faster than C, so maybe it's possible.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#657

Post by PoignardAzur »

adamrezich wrote: post #585
anonfordays wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If comments as benign as "thin blue line" causes fragile entryist/activists to flee, I say Ted and the kernel team are doing the right thing. Projects as critical as the Linux kernel shouldn't be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, nor should they be platforms for proselytizing. Marcan and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake. Lots of projects have been turned upsidedown by the drama…

Quite wild to see this being downvoted, because by downvoting, surely one implies the inverse of your post to be the truth, such that projects such as the Linux kernel should be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, should be platforms for proselytizing, and so forth. Very strange to see little to no empathy for kernel maintainers in this situation.

Most people would not interpret downvoting as "I believe that the exact opposite of every single sentence in your post is true".

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#658

Post by Lammy »

uhgrippa wrote: post #235
nindalf wrote: post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

These are often the same classification of individual who tend to modify their viewpoints towards “change is progressing rapidly in an area that I don’t understand and this scares me.” Anytime an expert in a particular area has their expertise challenged or even threatened by a new technology it is perfectly human to react in a way that is defensive towards the perceived threat. Part of growth as a human is recognizi…

> After all, NIMBYS probably started out with reasonable justifications for why they want to keep their communities the way they currently are

Bad example IMO. What is reasonable about this? http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea.html

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#659

Post by bowsamic »

lenova wrote: post #535
ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not okay but he's giving them ammunition by mentioning them and complaining about them. It proves that it's working. When I started getting harassed in 2022 over an ill advised post on a site, the only thing that stopped it was to sandbag everything and rethink how I interacted on the internet.

That's victim blaming, even when it's in reference to yourself.

Sometimes the victim can take the action to stop the abuse even when they’re not at fault

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#660

Post by grandinj »

Hmmm. Seems to me they took on a little too much technical risk at the start of an already complex project, to wit, buying into Rust on the kernel side.

Rust in the linux kernel was always going to be a long game. You don't want to have that be a blocker when you really want is to make larger kernel changes.

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