Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

651–660 of 730 posts

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#651

Post by quadrifoliate »

kortilla wrote: post #599
quadrifoliate wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eg I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. This is bullshit. The difference is that today, your own culture e.g. (non-native) American society till the modern day is considered fair game for analysis, whereas 20 years ago there was probably a fair…

> This is bullshit. The difference is that today, your own culture e.g. (non-native) American society till the modern day is considered fair game for analysis, whereas 20 years ago there was probably a fair bit of "they are savages to be studied, whereas we are civilized" complex going on. Emotional temper tantrum - check. Whataboutism referring to other cultures - check. > Guess what, things change, and usually in a…

This is hilarious. And I'm assuming that a declaration like:

"Eg I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis."

...that makes rather extreme ad-hoc statements about modern academia without citing even a shred of their own or someone else's experience is chock-full of critical thinking skills and a great way to conduct debate?

Definitely the product of an education via Internet Corner Bubble Forum where you can randomly make up controversial statements that get upvoted by like-minded people and expect to not be called out on them.

> "Emotional temper tantrum - check."

"You're hysterical for giving my Kleenex-thin argument the short shrift it deserves!"

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#652

Post by strikelaserclaw »

hintymad wrote: post #504
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

Yet in the meantime UCLA got 146K applications this year, and UCSD more than 130K. Students with 4.3+ weighted GPAs and 15+ APs still got rejected. UC's admission officers (AO) in their pubic talks made it clear that academic performance account for only 40% in admission, extracurricular activities another 40%, and personality 20%. So, UC systems give AOs 60% of the discretion! How is it different from the garbage Xi…

it should generally have the long term effect of making a slightly lower ranked school better ranked in the long term because all the smart rejects go there.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#653

Post by quadrifoliate »

xyzelement wrote: post #424
quadrifoliate wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but your heated response implies a resistance to at least some forms on inquiry as unacceptable or inappropriate or at a minimum worthy of disparagement I'm trying to engage reasonably by assuming some things here, specifically that the OP has peripheral knowledge of some courses (since they haven't actually attended college recently) and they are categorizing the relatively detached nature of those courses as "a p…

The person you are replying to was onto something when he called your comment "heated" Your first post had none of the things you are talking about in your 2nd post... It simply said "that's bullshit" and suggested that what changed is the openness of western culture to criticism. Your second post (one I am replying to) is more reasonable but if this is somehow what you originally meant that's not what came out..

> The person you are replying to was onto something when he called your comment "heated"

I would probably say blunt, but I think you got the general tone correct.

> Your second post (one I am replying to) is more reasonable but if this is somehow what you originally meant that's not what came out..

Well, the original post had no proof and was making wild statements. It's fair game to meet it with a blunt assessment.

Do you spend time arguing with the wild-eyed guy on the street who is holding a sign that secret agencies are spying on you? Probably not. On the other hand, see that in a national paper with some references and statistics, and hey, you're actually sitting up and taking notice.

Your first comment was much more on the wild-eyed guy side of the scale, hence the (probably overly so, sorry!) blunt engagement.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#654

Post by dahart »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #591
dahart wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is precisely the question that has been asked & answered, and the general consensus in the academic literature (for example https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 ) is that it’s both. The Fed paper I linked to here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35212497 shows dramatically higher income and wealth premiums for educated people in the 30s and 40s, so you might want to take a peek.

The GP asked what the outcomes would have been if no one had gone to college. This isn't answered by the paper you linked, which discussed the impact on individuals of college choice in a world where people do* go to college.

This and other papers are trying as best they can to answer exactly that question, of what if there was no college. Since the hypothetical universe where college never existed doesn’t exist, they have to resort to careful scientific techniques that attempt to factor out every bias we can think of. They’re working with what they have. Papers have, for example, studied the family history of college attendance and adjusted (discounted) for when parents and grandparents attend, they have adjusted for family wealth, for race, for geographic location, for country, for tuition, etc. etc.. You can either accept that they’ve tried rather hard and come up with a reasonable answer, or accept that the question you’re demanding be answered in the specific way you want it answered is not answerable that way, your choice.

Again, I have to ask (since it hasn’t yet been answered yet in this thread) why does this hypothetical question matter from a student’s perspective? Students are deciding what to do in the world that exists now, not in a world where people don’t go to college. All they know is that outcomes are better with a degree that without, on average. If you were choosing college right now, why does it matter what happens in the alternate reality? Don’t you just think about the jobs you want in the future, what you’re interests are and how much money you want to make, and then go or not?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#655

Post by dahart »

vxNsr wrote: post #597
dahart wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is precisely the question that has been asked & answered, and the general consensus in the academic literature (for example https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 ) is that it’s both. The Fed paper I linked to here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35212497 shows dramatically higher income and wealth premiums for educated people in the 30s and 40s, so you might want to take a peek.

Whether it’s fair to say or not: trusting professors to do a fair study on whether their expertise is necessary isn’t exactly an unbiased study. I’m sure they meant well but it’s just hard to take anything they’re saying at face value.

That’s not fair to say. Read some of the literature. The Fed study isn’t even professors.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#656

Post by rahimnathwani »

dahart wrote: post #654
rahimnathwani wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP asked what the outcomes would have been if no one had gone to college. This isn't answered by the paper you linked, which discussed the impact on individuals of college choice in a world where people do* go to college.

This and other papers are trying as best they can to answer exactly that question, of what if there was no college. Since the hypothetical universe where college never existed doesn’t exist, they have to resort to careful scientific techniques that attempt to factor out every bias we can think of. They’re working with what they have. Papers have, for example, studied the family history of college attendance and adjus…

  This and other papers are trying as best they can to answer exactly that question, of what if there was no college.
No they don't.

  why does this hypothetical question matter from a student’s perspective?"
It doesn't matter from a prospective student's perspective. If someone cares only about their own success (or their children's), it doesn't matter. But it matters for society overall, so it is still worth discussing.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#657

Post by dahart »

mtrower wrote: post #593
dahart wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These jobs simply need to pay more. Totally agree! What can be done to get trade jobs to pay as much as white-collar desk jobs that require degrees? > It’s also quite possible for them to come out of college $40k in debt, with no job to show for it, and end up struggling to pay that off for the rest of their lives. It is possible, sure, but the data shows conclusively that you’re better off, statistically speaking,…

> So if we’re going to talk about struggling, we need to be fair to the people who struggle to pay for food and housing, not just struggle to pay off their college debt. You don't think this overlaps? If you're coming out of college with no job to show for it, what is your job? You probably didn't prep for something substantial, because college was your career plan, and it bombed. > The average outcome for degrees is…

What evidence is there that the distribution is bi-modal? I don’t believe that it is. It’s not bi-modal just because you imagined a threshold somewhere, it is only bi-modal if there’s a single large dip in the middle of the histogram.

The threshold you’re talking about, where college doesn’t pay off, might exist for a minority of people. Around 10% of people who take college loans go into default on them for example. But this threshold you’re talking about is not at the 50% line, it is much, much lower than that. The statistics do in fact show us that the majority of people who get a degree are better off. I’m surprised to be arguing this basic point, the stats from the Fed and from many other sources are very clear about this. Like just googling ‘is college worth it’ give you random blog posts that back this up, e.g., https://www.ramseysolutions.com/saving/is-college-worth-it. Here, “According to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, the median income for a high school graduate is $30,000, while those with a bachelor’s degree make around $52,000.” Please pay special attention to the word “median”. The article I linked is from the St Louis Fed, and keep in mind that it is arguing that college is becoming less worth it! (If/when you read it, don’t forget to think about what the absolute dollar earnings/savings are. The paper’s comparisons are mostly ratios and they can be & are misleading in spots.)

I’m not arguing that some people don’t end up in debt, I am pointing out the fact that most people fare better with a degree than without.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#658

Post by EleanorKonik »

azinman2 wrote: post #186
phpisthebest wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>4 years of education on a daily basis. Is it? Really??? For all degrees and all programs.. that is the claim... but I just do not see that manifest in reality. Seem you have a very inflated view of the programs... just how much debt are you attempting to justify?

I carry zero educational debt. How do you not see that manifest in reality? What school doesn’t have classes 5 days a week that people are taking, or otherwise expected to be somehow participating in an activity related to education? Sounds like a school that should lose its accreditation.

I went to a public honors college / small state school, and arranged my schedule such that I only had 3 days of classes, so I could go home and take care of my sick mom and work a part time weekend job. Even then the schedule was not what I would consider punishing; significantly LESS academic work than I'd needed to do in high school taking APs, even with the reading load.

That school definitely is not in danger of losing its accreditation any time soon. It also didn't have any frats/sororities, and there weren't any bars within a 15 minute drive.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#659

Post by wootland »

InCityDreams wrote: post #634
wootland wrote: post #3

I wish it were easier to get a visa and move to another country without a degree. As someone without a degree, that's been the most annoying issue. The best parts are: not having student loans and not having a mindset that grinding within "the system" leads to success.

But where are you, where would you like to move to?

I'm in the US and sadly most places require at least a bachelor's degree to get enough "points" for almost any visa.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#660

Post by irrational »

vxNsr wrote: post #598
irrational wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics wasn’t the important part. The things I learned studying ancient history and linguistics and how those have made me a better person and developer are. I do understand how much tuition has skyrocketed. The year I graduated, tuition was $1,360 per semester. In 2023, tuition is $3,152 per semester. That is a $1,792 increase only 25 years (I graduated in 1998)

What school only charges $6300/yr?

http://catalog2022.byu.edu/policy/tuition-fees
Post reply on HN