Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#651

Post by chmod600 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 1:22 AM UTC

danudey wrote: post #613

chmod600 wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.

I see the distinction here. In South Africa you could be a citizen regardless of your race, but how you were treated depended on your race; citizens were not equal. In Israel, they are trying to prevent people of a certain race from becoming citizens, but once you are a citizen, there are fewer 'official' racist policies even if a lot of the people you have to deal with are outwardly racist anyway. On paper, citizens…

In other words, it doesn't meet the definition of apartheid.

You can make an analogy to apartheid. It's up to others to determine if the analogy fits the point you are making though.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by ipaddr » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 2:33 AM UTC

mahkeiro wrote: post #625

sgregnt wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other western countries with very strict immigration policies. I think this applies to Switzerland and to Japan, for example.

No it doesn't apply to Switzerland where 32% of the population are foreigner…

Temporary workers.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by orestarod » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 2:46 AM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #563

twofornone wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes I would be okay in the hypothetical situation you've constructed, with loaded language and fear tactics. I would also be fine with publicly shaming view points like yours and getting you fired from your job for being completely xenophobic. I can't imagine how you view your middle eastern coworkers who you've decided hate women and shit?

The middle eastern coworkers decided it by following Islam. Islam is not an abstract theory, it is a very detailed book. It would be good to read it. Among other things, it explicitly demands to accept the whole of it to be a true Muslim. No cherry picking what fits our spiritual needs.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by SpelingBeeChamp » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 2:59 AM UTC

idop wrote: post #633

pthread_t wrote: post #39

So, 21% of Israel's population has restrictions on who they could marry all so that they can maintain a majority of the favored demographic. This is apartheid.

Minority groups in Israel actually have less restrictions with regards to marriage than the majority. Minority groups have freedom of religion. I'm a jew by ethnicity but an atheist by religion. I do not have freedom of religion. If I wanted to get married, by law, I am forced to get approval from the Jewish Rabbinate and follow religious protocols that make my skin crawl. And my spouse must be Jewish too.

Not really. You could do what thousands of others do any take a quick trip to Cyprus, get married (regardless of your partner’s religion or sex), and have the marriage civilly recognized in Israel.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by ashwagary » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 3:20 AM UTC

MauroIksem wrote: post #635

chmod600 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your source: "Israeli politicians say the law is both an essential security measure to prevent Palestinian terror attacks and a means of preserving a Jewish majority in Israel." Maybe it's more of an immigration policy than a security policy?

Emigrating into your own country. That's a new one. Opinions here are laughable.

[flagged]

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by hda2 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:06 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #513

csomar wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. Jews have been prosecuted on many parts of the world and on different timelines of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews They have also found refugee in Muslim community from Christian prosecution multiple times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl... > Laws like these lower the probability of Jews becomi…

>They have also found refugee in Muslim community from Christian prosecution multiple times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl ... Got some really lovely apologia for Islamic imperialism in that page: >Jews under Islamic rule were given the status of dhimmi, along with certain other pre-Islamic religious groups.[1] Though second-class citizens,

Leaving what you consider Islamic imperialism aside, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how dhimmi status compared to how jews were treated in other parts of the world at that time.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by this2shallPass » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #263

coeneedell wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to say that there's something inherent to the Jewish population that they're less likely to marry a non-Jewish person than a Muslim is to marry a non-Muslim?

I am not sure, where you draw that conclusion from, but yes that would be correct. Because the jewish religious law (which many jews have to follow to peer pressure, even if they are not religious by themself) explicitely forbids marrying non jews and no one can convert to the jewish religion. Muslims on the other hand can marry non muslims, but are supposed to convert them. So this is indeed way more comon.

> no one can convert to the jewish religion

Citation needed / this is not correct. It isn't easy, but it is perfectly kosher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by thehappypm » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:12 AM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #612

thehappypm wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would mean 100,000 terrorists in the scale of the USA

Not sure what you mean by this. There's not a current, similar situation in the US where the average US citizen feels like they were recently displaced/oppressed/etc by occupiers. That's been the situation in the past with Native Americans, slave populations, the American revolution, etc. I suspect the numbers met that threshold then.

I don’t think this is a good faith answer. .037% of the USA pop is roughly 100,000 people.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

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Post by zaphirplane » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #606

mabbo wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a better analogy to compare the situation to? Language is about communicating ideas efficiently. Apartheid is a good word for what is happening, and our response should be the same as it was in South Africa.

My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.

You don’t have the same right to marry who you want thou (where the other person agrees to be explicit)

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#660

Post by denton-scratch » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:47 AM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #227

biorach wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The occupation of the West Bank does nothing to deter this. The annexation of the Golan Heights is somewhat justifiable on strategic grounds. The occupation of the West Bank is a land grab, pure and simple.

I think continuing to occupy West Bank and Gaza is unconscionable. But you’re mischaracterising the strategic importance of the West Bank. If it was a sovereign nation, the logical thing for the West Bank government to do would be to place artillery on the high ground near Israeli cities. The artillery would be sufficiently protected and would be capable of causing widespread destruction. That’s powerful negotiating…

A two-state solution isn't wanted by Israel (at least, not by the settlers and their supporters), nor by most Palestinians. Israel wants to keep the whole of the West Bank. Most Palestinians would like to live in a single state that isn't based on apartheid and oppression.

It's really hard to imagine a two-state solution working, when leading Israeli politicians repeatedly declare that Israel consists of all the land between the Jordan and the sea. And even if it could be agreed, Israel would remain a segregated state. A single state with one-man one-vote would quickly put an end to apartheid, and to many of the most serious complaints of the Palestinians.

The argument against a single-state solution is that it would put an end to the idea of a "Jewish homeland". That is true; but a "Jewish homeland" must necessarily be an apartheid homeland, which discriminates against non-Jews.