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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#651

Post by hef19898 »

throwaway8581 wrote: post #458
jaegerpicker wrote: post #406

7 people out of 7 million dose's. That's why they stopped. My wife and I got the J&J shot on Saturday so I'm directly at risk and I'd take it everytime even if the risk was 10 times what it currently is. I've already seen a bunch of anit-vaxers referring to this in new articles this morning. So let's see, 1 in a million chance that the vaccine will make you sick (only 1 person has died so far, which is terrible but i…

We usually test vaccines for a decade because of the risk of unknown short term and long term side effects. If we don't know why people are getting blood clots from the vaccine, then we don't understand the vaccine and could be creating long term issues for many people.

We don't. Vaccines are monitored, called phase 4 trials. Taking place after approval. No vaccine was tested for decades before approval. It is only that development and approval takes longer, in case of the Covid vaccines approval red tape was cut. And not trials.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#652

Post by theptip »

kaczordon wrote: post #271
myrandomcomment wrote: post #230

Okay so I want to make something very clear here. The rule is to put it very very simply, is you can ship any drug that is approved but you have to list the side effects. This drug was approved under an emergency order and this side effect was not listed. This will get paused long enough for the side effects to be updated and then used again. The arguments about “well the birth control pill has a higher risk” are usi…

Umm maybe because the blood clot issue is being underreported because no one is looking for it? We’re essentially doing mass experimentation with gene-based vaccines on the US population, all the vaccines use either mRNA or DNA insertion. Caution here is the logical and ethical thing. Also: the side effect profile for the moderna and pfizer vaccines in the clinical trials was far WORSE than the jnj vaccine. Edit: gen…

> Caution here is the logical and ethical thing.

In this pandemic, inaction costs lives. The logical and ethical thing to do is evaluate the cost/benefit and choose the path that kills fewer people. You wouldn't say "we should exit the burning house one at a time in case we get hit by a meteor outside, caution here is the logical and ethical thing"; you're making the same kind of logical error, just with a less-absurd difference between the risk of the two options we need to choose between.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#653

Post by meepmorp »

ryankemper wrote: post #631
tharne wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technology behind this vaccine has been actively worked on for over a decade. Yes, these vaccines have been sent to market faster than normal, but they certainly have not been "rushed".

I hear this line being trotted out all over - especially from the "experts" - and I find it nothing short of enraging. There is a difference between saying "an mRNA platform in general might not be safe" and the actual claim real people make which is "this specific vaccine has not existed for more than a year and is being hastily rolled out on the world population via implicit or explicit coercion". The mRNA platform…

It's not an mRNA vaccine; it uses an adenovirus vector, like the Oxford/AZ virus.

The mRNA vaccines both seem to be fine, by comparison.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#654

Post by prof-dr-ir »

As is typical for this comment thread, in this comment I will claim that pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths because that is how many people will die if we do not have a vaccine. All this to save 1 out of 7 million lives. In passing I would like to call everybody involved in the decision idiotic.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#655

Post by prof-dr-ir »

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #654

As is typical for this comment thread, in this comment I will claim that pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths because that is how many people will die if we do not have a vaccine. All this to save 1 out of 7 million lives. In passing I would like to call everybody involved in the decision idiotic.

As is typical for this comment thread, in this top-voted [0] reply to this comment I will point out that pausing one vaccine is not the same as stopping the entire vaccination program forever. I would in addition like to point out that once cannot simply compare the risks because they can vary wildly across populations, and that the one out of seven million might not be a reliable estimate. Might it not be good to wait until we know the actual risk, given also the abundance of other types of vaccine?

[0] one can hope

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#656

Post by arcticbull »

hamadj wrote: post #490
jaegerpicker wrote: post #406

7 people out of 7 million dose's. That's why they stopped. My wife and I got the J&J shot on Saturday so I'm directly at risk and I'd take it everytime even if the risk was 10 times what it currently is. I've already seen a bunch of anit-vaxers referring to this in new articles this morning. So let's see, 1 in a million chance that the vaccine will make you sick (only 1 person has died so far, which is terrible but i…

I think it is a disservice to outright label people as anti-vaxers simply for questioning the risk-calculus of vaccines. The (1/7 million) is the current, unconditional and empirically observed adverse effect of the vaccine - this is a somewhat noisy measure of the true prevalence of this issue. It is okay to be cautious and there are legitimate concerns, and quite frankly, I trust the FDA have good reason to pause t…

> The (1/7 million) is the current, unconditional and empirically observed adverse effect of the vaccine - this is a somewhat noisy measure of the true prevalence of this issue. It is okay to be cautious and there are legitimate concerns, and quite frankly, I trust the FDA have good reason to pause this if Moderna/Pfizer are readily available anywy.

How many injections do you personally need to feel comfortable? Seven million people is way more than any clinical trial for any drug you've ever taken, and I guarantee you any of them is more likely to kill you.

Every single year 150 people die from taking Tylenol in the US in the normal course of treatment -- and 500 die of acute liver failure due to acetaminophen overdose. 25,000 hospital admissions. 50,000 ER visits. If we pretend that 350,000,000 people take Tylenol each year, that makes Tylenol 50% more likely to kill you than this vaccine.

It's simply not ok. They are anti-vaxxers.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#657

Post by prof-dr-ir »

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #654

As is typical for this comment thread, in this comment I will claim that pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine will lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths because that is how many people will die if we do not have a vaccine. All this to save 1 out of 7 million lives. In passing I would like to call everybody involved in the decision idiotic.

As is typical for this comment thread, in further replies we can happily claim the effect that this has on the anti-vaxxing crowd, whose thinking we are all extremely familiar with. Of course, since we are all careful people we will also balance the effects of the decision to pause the vaccine against the decision not to pause in the face of potential blood clotting issues.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#658

Post by tryonenow »

thelean12 wrote: post #650
heywherelogingo wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I've had all other vaccines, but this batch is rushed, experimental, and not necessary for me - labelling people such as myself "anti-vaxers" is just dishonest, bitter, childish, name calling. Very few people in my area of London have bothered with the so-called lockdown (too much was open to be called a lockdown), masks, etc - I expect I've had all variants, and apparently my immune system is on top of it, i…

You may not be full on anti-vax, but you're very clearly anti-science. > I expect I've had all variants No evidence of this. > and apparently my immune system is on top of it No evidence of this. > in which case there's nothing to pass on Even if the above were true, we don't know how long you'd have immunity. > and the people in my area clearly don't care if I did. They would if they caught it and had severe symptom…

Resorting to calling people "anti-science" is just as counterproductive and unnecessary as calling them "anti-vax". You're only solidifying animosity and mistrust. People have every right to question what they're being told by the same governments who mishandled this epidemic from the start - especially since there such strong political incentives that aren't necessarily aligned with scientifically based recommendations.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#659

Post by fspeech »

lghh wrote: post #498
FunnyLookinHat wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and we only just started to roll this vaccine out - so it's fair to say that the risk will likely grow beyond that. You're right that 7 / 7,000,000 are good odds, and most people would likely take them - but it would be unwise to not give people an educated choice between vaccines if there are known risks.

> but it would be unwise to not give people an educated choice between vaccines if there are known risks They are not giving people an educated choice, they are taking that choice away until they deem it okay to give it back. Education is knowing that 7/7,000,000 had a blood clot + the other tests that were done leading up to its release. We know that now. We're educated.

It is CVST not just blood clots. There are a lot more blood clots with or without the vaccine. CVST is rare so is the proverbial canary in the coal mine here.

The CVST incidents give a lower bound on risk. The trial data give a rough upper bound on risk (rough due to the small sample size). Knowledge is being refined here. We can't make educated choices without knowledge.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#660

Post by jrockway »

heywherelogingo wrote: post #582
hamadj wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a disservice to outright label people as anti-vaxers simply for questioning the risk-calculus of vaccines. The (1/7 million) is the current, unconditional and empirically observed adverse effect of the vaccine - this is a somewhat noisy measure of the true prevalence of this issue. It is okay to be cautious and there are legitimate concerns, and quite frankly, I trust the FDA have good reason to pause t…

Agreed, I've had all other vaccines, but this batch is rushed, experimental, and not necessary for me - labelling people such as myself "anti-vaxers" is just dishonest, bitter, childish, name calling. Very few people in my area of London have bothered with the so-called lockdown (too much was open to be called a lockdown), masks, etc - I expect I've had all variants, and apparently my immune system is on top of it, i…

Did you get an antibody test to confirm that you've already had it? I don't think data supports the assumption that you've already had it; it's a rare disease even where it's spreading widely. I also have a gut feeling that people didn't take "lockdown" or social distancing seriously, but some counterevidence is that nobody in the UK has gotten the flu in 2021: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/flu-cases-covid-en... That's not because they're already immune, it's because diseases simply aren't being transmitted. As bad as people are about masks and social distancing, there is some measurable effect.

I'll also point out some anecdata. I know someone in their late 20s that got COVID. They have felt miserable every day in the 9 months since having it. Others have relayed similar stories. Public health authorities are worried about severe consequences like death, but death isn't the only possible outcome. You could just feel like shit for the rest of your life.

To me, this is a nasty disease that I do not want to contract. I probably won't die if I get it, but there is more to life than merely not being dead. As a result, I got the vaccine as soon as I could.

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