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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#651

Post by onethought »

tripletao wrote: post #647
onethought wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those citations indicate engineering of the virus. Am I missing something?

You're using the word "engineering" without defining it, and thereby conflating two things: 1. Direct artificial manipulation of a virus's genetic sequence. 2. Laboratory culture and passaging of a virus, allowing evolution due to natural mutations to proceed under artificial selective constraints. No one serious is focusing on (1). The people bringing it up most often are either uneducated cranks, or zoonotic origin…

As far as I have seen, there is no evidence they were allowing the virus to mutate. Do you have a reference to that?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#652

Post by tripletao »

onethought wrote: post #651
tripletao wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the word "engineering" without defining it, and thereby conflating two things: 1. Direct artificial manipulation of a virus's genetic sequence. 2. Laboratory culture and passaging of a virus, allowing evolution due to natural mutations to proceed under artificial selective constraints. No one serious is focusing on (1). The people bringing it up most often are either uneducated cranks, or zoonotic origin…

As far as I have seen, there is no evidence they were allowing the virus to mutate. Do you have a reference to that?

The WIV published lots of gain-of-function research, but all by genetic engineering and not serial passage. Ralph Baric's group has published on coronavirus gain-of-function by serial passage though:

> We adapted the SARS-CoV (Urbani strain) by serial passage in the respiratory tract of young BALB/c mice. Fifteen passages resulted in a virus (MA15) that is lethal for mice following intranasal inoculation.

https://yurideigin.medium.com/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-throug...

So it doesn't seem implausible to me that the WIV would bring up a similar program. The lack of any public record doesn't seem like it requires any conspiracy to me, just for them not to have published yet (especially since they only got the BSL-4 lab where they'd likely be doing that work in 2018).

I think I probably understated the plausibility of a genetically-engineered origin in my comment above, too. I've just re-read Andersen's reasoning in the Nature article, and it's based heavily on the dissimilarity of SARS-CoV-2 from previously-known viruses. But we know the WIV had a private database--for example, RaTG13 was allegedly collected in 2013, but not published until after the emergence of SARS-CoV-2.

Honestly this whole area of research seems terrifying to me. Regardless of whether it's eventually shown to have caused this pandemic or not, I see no indication that this work is delivering any benefit commensurate to its risk. Many prominent epidemiologists vocally opposed the lifting of the 2018 ban on funding of gain-of-function research (e.g., Marc Lipsitch at Harvard), and I agree with them.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#653

Post by SixDouble5321 »

Leary wrote: post #452

People don't realize that we are engaged in a great power competition with China. And the battle of information/misinformation is everywhere. Don't trust anything from the US/China about the other, rely on neutral third parties instead

It doesn't seem to me that any significant third party can be completely neutral when it concerns the US and China.

There is practically nowhere on this planet one can hope to truly be unaffected by one or the other.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#654

Post by StanislavPetrov »

tim333 wrote: post #530
bhawks wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I am there with you in spirit, a global ban is effectively meaningless. It is unenforceable from the start. All the major world powers would continue their research (perhaps slightly less openly) simply from a MAD angle (it is irresponsible to ignore the value of a pathogen that no one else has seen and you have the antibiotics for). We are living in dark times in terms of our technological capability and th…

Most of the gain of function research is either well meaning to understand disease or part of normal science published in journals. Banning it would reduce the amount done greatly.

>Most of the gain of function research is either well meaning

It doesn't matter how good your intentions are when your behavior is extremely dangerous and can (and possibly did) result in a global pandemic that kills millions of people. Risk/reward calculations should be performed without regard to intent.

>Banning it would reduce the amount done greatly.

It would also reduce the risk of a man-made virus killing millions of people.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#655

Post by _nkl1 »

toyg wrote: post #348
_nkl1 wrote: post #90

"Deep concerns" over Navalny's poisoning. "Deep concerns" over Navalny's imprisonment. "Deep concerns" over the coup in Myanmar. And now "deep concerns" over China refusing to provide data to the WHO.

Wanna land a Chinese beach instead? Diplomacy is a difficult game.

i suggest you get acquainted with the 1930s history.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#656

Post by qubit000 »

whythre wrote: post #631
qubit000 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great firewall is deterrent to spreading fake news, disinformation, and lies among the masses(1.4B) who make take it for truth resulting in social divisiveness and potential violence of which is happening in the US w/only 1/4 of the population. That said, the firewall is easily bypassed with VPN by many with the means to do so. Chinese govt does not view this as contradiction with their policy as it is deemed tho…

How can someone come on hackerNews (of all places) and claim the great firewall is a useful way to prevent disinformation? It just ensures that the only kind of information is the kind friendly to the ruling that party.

It insures that people aren't emotionally triggered by disinformation which often results in social divisiveness if not violence as is happening in the US.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#657

Post by mkolodny »

mkolodny wrote: post #623
tim333 wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the gain of function research is either well meaning to understand disease or part of normal science published in journals. Banning it would reduce the amount done greatly.

Even if these researchers have good intentions, they're human, and humans make mistakes. If someone doing gain-of-function research lets a new deadly virus or bacteria out into the wild by mistake, their mistake can can cause a pandemic like the one we're currently suffering from. I don't think there's anything that we could learn from gain-of-function research on deadly viruses and bacteria that would be worth riski…

To be clear, I would guess that if SARS-CoV-2 was created in a lab in Wuhan, it was created with good intentions, and escaped from the lab by mistake. And rather than figuring out where to point fingers, we can work together to prevent future pandemics by preventing research that creates deadly diseases.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#658

Post by LMYahooTFY »

Supermancho wrote: post #599
LMYahooTFY wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the points you make may be true, they do not conclusively show that it makes no difference. See my response to GP.

> I think there are social/political ramifications to seriously consider. Totally disagree. The political ramifications were apparent the moment the denials and information flow stopped. There's nothing more to be gained. Basic game theory.

Are you vaguely referring to some principle source of truth you found on this matter?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#659

Post by infamia »

qubit000 wrote: post #613
mcswell wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fort Detrick and all other US bio weapons ceased research in offensive bioweapons in 1969. One reason is that bioweapons can't be controlled, as evidenced by the failure thus far to control this virus. So no, it's not likely that there are undisclosed US bio weapons research sites; that's just propaganda. While I don't trust the CCP a bit, I also doubt that China is pursuing bioweapons research, for the same reason:…

Fort Detrick was closed 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Detrick#2019_closure_and_...

The link you posted states that bioweapons research stopped in 1969 (including at Ft. Detrick) as the grandparent stated.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#660

Post by qubit000 »

infamia wrote: post #659
qubit000 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fort Detrick was closed 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Detrick#2019_closure_and_...

The link you posted states that bioweapons research stopped in 1969 (including at Ft. Detrick) as the grandparent stated.

It stopped being the 'central' bio research lab in US but still continued such research thereafter.
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