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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#651

Post by pronik »

dkarl wrote: post #345
__s wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

> Nvidia users are shitty consumers and I don’t even want them in my userbase. Can't say he isn't straightforward. If you bought your computer without thinking about running Linux on it, or if you're looking to install Linux on an employer-supplied Windows laptop, there's an excellent chance you're a shitty consumer that he doesn't want using his software.

Yeah I did think about it, which boiled down to "NVIDIA has working up-to-date Linux drivers" -- AMD used to be way worse and also there also has been a shortage of AMD-based workstation-class laptops on the market.

What I haven't considered is whether NVIDIA's Linux drivers might be implementing a particular graphics stack interface differently so that implementing Wayland on top of it becomes a PITA for some developers (not that GNOME and KDE didn't compromise to implement it anyways for users' sake). That does not make me a "shitty consumer", there is no way even a cautious consumer can take things like "GBM vs EGLStreams" fully into account every time.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#652

Post by SEJeff »

belval wrote: post #594
kuschku wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia supports exactly one use case on Linux: running their GPUs in servers or workstations purely with their proprietary drivers purely for ML and CAD work. Everything else is completely unsupported, and if you’ve got an issue with that, you’ve got to complain to Nvidia, not open source projects. You expect a single unpaid volunteer maintaining a wayland compositor alone to somehow be able to add support for nvidia…

I don't expect anything from anyone, it's about what I need. I need Nvidia GPUs in my setup to run my trainings. If Wayland maintainers wants me to move on from X11 they will have to make it work. Right now they don't want to (which is fine!) but that means I can say I do not consider Wayland to be a viable alternative to X11 for me.

Precisely! And this isn't "anti-Wayland horseshit" so much as it is simply Wayland is not viable for your use case and mine as well. He insults nvidia, insults nvidia users, and then complains that people don't want to use wayland. Very unprofessional and laughable that he expects people to agree with his POV.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#653

Post by worik »

Drew was not talking about people not liking Wayland, not wanting to use Wayland, or having criticisms of Wayland.

He was talking about the bullying and abuse that many people think they are entitled to hand out, just because because.

I have no opinion on Wayland - I use what ever is in front of me, but I share the disgust at the bullying.

Times have changed. We are no longer a bunch of young men, tough and full of testosterone, able to give and take all teh shit - and loving it.

Times have changed, now the time is to be nice

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#654

Post by whatisthisfield »

ddevault wrote: post #615
btinker wrote: post #515

> Wayland works for almost everyone, and works for more people than is even possible with X11. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself, asshole. But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). Am I now a lier or an unimpo…

>But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME. GNOME is a dumpster fire and its premature roll-out to Fedora, Ubuntu, etc was very badly done. None of that has any bearing on Wayland, except to…

Maybe GNOME doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago.

GNOME works for almost everyone. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#655

Post by cycloptic »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #626

The biggest beef I have with wayland is it's security model. Ok, you don't want to let other applications listen to keystrokes, record the screen, etc, by default? Fine. There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that, not outright breaking the practice! Wayland feels like some ivy tower academic's ideal of what a display system should be. Eve…

>There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that

I'm not sure what you mean. This is actually exactly what is being done in GNOME and KDE's wayland implementations.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#657

Post by ddevault »

whatisthisfield wrote: post #654
ddevault wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME. GNOME is a dumpster fire and its premature roll-out to Fedora, Ubuntu, etc was very badly done. None of that has any bearing on Wayland, except to…

Maybe GNOME doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. GNOME works for almost everyone. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself.

Problems with GNOME are not a fantasy.

Fantasy: Wayland does not support screen capture.

This criticism is not legitimate. In actual truth, many Wayland compositors do support screen capture.

Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations.

This is a legitimate criticism of GNOME.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#658

Post by zamadatix »

renewiltord wrote: post #423

I hope Ubuntu stays on X because I use it with proprietary nvidia drivers and everything is very nice for me. Linux has never been better. Nouveau was pretty good but wouldn't properly handle 144 Hz. If Ubuntu keeps using X, I think I'll be fine for a while.

KDE Wayland supports the Nvidia proprietary driver, Gnome Wayland kinda supports it but is still working on it. If/when Ubuntu switches from X for Nvidia users you won't have to go to the nouveau driver.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#659

Post by zepto »

DCKing wrote: post #281
zepto wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is be a fine distinction to make if there is an implementation of Wayland that is there. Then we can say this is just about a particular implementation, and not Wayland itself. If no implementation of Wayland is ‘there’, it seems pretty reasonable to say Wayland is not there yet.

People use the name "Wayland" as an umbrella term for "the entire effort on the Linux desktop get rid of X11". I'd generally agree that there aren't any desktops that flawlessly replace X11 [1], but I don't like that Wayland is the name for "the entire effort on the Linux desktop get rid of X11". I think it can be seen in OP's list that most of the issues that OP raised are actually not due to deficiencies in the dis…

I mean this is all true, but it’s worth pointing out that Wayland is actually an effort to get rid of X11 on the Linux desktop by introducing a new protocol.

Given this, it’s not surprising Wayland has become the name associated with the overall goal.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#660

Post by vetinari »

adkadskhj wrote: post #225
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

Sure, i'm willing to accept that - but is your solution for me to buy a new graphics card? How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? To be clear, i know nothing of compositors/etc, I've had nothing but problems with Xorg, and i want to use Wayland. _and yet_ - it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can r…

> How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland?

No.

Long-term Nvidia share is about ~18%, AMD ~12% and Intel ~70%. But that's for the entire market, and since Windows gamers are skewing toward Nvidia, that makes the rest to make up the percentage.

So 80% not being able to run Wayland due to being Nvidia is grossly incorrect.

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