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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#651

Post by pengstrom »

thinkloop wrote: post #541
austhrow743 wrote: post #466

Intergenerational wealth transfer is the root of all evil. She absolutely shouldn't be able to do that.

I agree but preventing parents from providing security for their children is a form of harm. One could then argue that if all wealth were recycled, the state would be so strong that parents would feel even safer for their children in such a system - but then you're back to state vs. individual, socialism vs. freedom, etc., etc.

Yes, but if you argue a policy, even status quo, you're responsible for it's externalities. Wealth accumulation over generations creates real harm too.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#652

Post by bmitc »

onion2k wrote: post #544
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich.

That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point.

In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive.

I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the predatory nature of those in power is put in check.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#653

Post by barbs »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #646
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> 3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times. I think it should be p…

Agreed. I also think that in a lot of cases having a stable income will help people the help they need to properly address these mental health issues.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#654

Post by makomk »

hanspeter wrote: post #650
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. In countries with a tradition to have full government care for all citizens, those cases are solved by having the payments managed for you (usually by the city). So you would have weekly smaller payments rather than a monthly payment, and you may even have the city pay your rent for you rather than giving you cash in hand. And if you still mess…

The "nanny state" is only part of what would make this unattractive. I'm pretty sure that a lot of other Americans would see this not as UBI but as the government funding landlords and making them richer.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#655

Post by bmitc »

arunkd13 wrote: post #600
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

Employees should not depend on the government for their ability to walk away from a job. They should depend on real assets that help them live more self sufficiently outside of their employment. This should include family, friend and other forms of community ties.

> They should depend on real assets that help them live more self sufficiently outside of their employment.

That is simply an impossibility for the majority of people.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#657

Post by perfunctory »

bmitc wrote: post #652
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

> but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive.

Why?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#658

Post by austhrow743 »

sjwalter wrote: post #546
austhrow743 wrote: post #466

Intergenerational wealth transfer is the root of all evil. She absolutely shouldn't be able to do that.

Wait--the root of all evil is me trying to work hard to leave something for my kids so they can have a better life than I do and, with any luck, pass on the genes that I've given them? When your policy proposals require extinguishing desires built into our minds and bodies by millions of years of evolution, you should go back to the drawing board. The root of all evil is unqualified, absolute, extreme statements, and…

- Desires to hit people you hate and fuck people you find attractive are built into our minds and bodies by millions of years of evolution yet most people find not running around assaulting and raping to be pretty easy.

- Most terrible things people do are for the gain or preservation of resources and most people either have kids or want them. Piracy, animal poaching, bear bile farms, kidnapping and ransoming people, making and selling hard drugs, organised crime in general, war, telemarketing. Most people doing this aren't millionaires looking to buy yacht number 4, it's largely people just providing for their kids and we rightly hate those people anyway. So again not really a defence.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#659

Post by ethanbond »

bmitc wrote: post #652
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

Yeah it’s like UBI people believe rent prices are set by something other than the maximum that the landlord can get for it. If you give people ability to pay greater rent, as say the advent of the motorized plow did, then rent goes up. Simple as that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#660

Post by marcus_holmes »

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

The question I can't answer is "what stops a nation voting itself more income?"

If every unscrupulous politician can promise to raise the base UBI rate to get elected, what stops that?

Obviously, inflation will fix it in the relatively short term, but that's not a good result. And there's an unscrupulous politician in power.

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