Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#651

Post by Fins » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:27 AM UTC

door3 wrote: post #97

alexashka wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's the strange notion that having an opinion that doesn't hurt anyone should lead to getting fired that's the problem... The irony is not obvious so here it is: You want Damore to be ex-communicated from Google, for having an opinion you disagree with. People of HackerNews have decided to ex-communicate YOU, for having an opinion they disagree with. (Assuming that's what happened on HackerNews, and not that y…

My values aren't "everyone should be able to say everything in every space everywhere without any consequence!", and I don't think even the most radical free speech libertarian would believe that. In either hackernews or at Google, if you started arguing for Holocaust denial, you can bet you wouldn't last long, no matter how hard you defend yourself with "free speech". In all spaces, there are rules of acceptable and…

This argument would be far more persuasive if it responded to what Damore actually wrotye, not to what people who rail about bogeymen like "patriarchy" wish he had written?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#652

Post by lkerrekfjk » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:30 AM UTC

_skel wrote: post #169

I don't get it. I grew up in Silicon Valley and I work in tech, and so do many other people I know. They run the gamut from far-left socialists to libertarians to own a bunch of guns. They have all kinds of ethnic backgrounds and religious views. Some of my most libertarian/pro-gun friends have not been shy about their political views and it hasn't hurt their tech careers at all. They are far more welcome here than l…

> Some of my most libertarian/pro-gun friends have not been shy about their political views and it hasn't hurt their tech careers at all. They are far more welcome here than liberals are in other parts of the country.

Do your friends work at Twitter? Github? Google? obviously they don't or they would have gotten fired for their political views by now.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#653

Post by lkerrekfjk » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:35 AM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #409

newnewpdro wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work is for working; it's not a debating society, and especially not when the debating is done in bad faith. If this were actually true of the current milieu of tech employment in the bay area, I'd likely still be a willing and active participant in that workforce. Substantial energy is wasted discussing ideologies and arranging/having meetings on what are fundamentally social issues we're not realistically fixing…

> SJW Ah the SJW boogyman. A quick way to get anybody with a functioning brain to dismiss everything you say.

> Ah the SJW boogyman. A quick way to get anybody with a functioning brain to dismiss everything you say.

lol, this stuff is real:

> Concerning White Fragility

> All white people are racist and, far from absolving them, this places an urgent burden on each and all.

https://np.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/7asxk7/concernin...

You can dismiss the problem all you want and act like these crazies don't exist, but they do and they are actively trying to kick out anybody that doesn't fall in line with their ideology from different circles where they operate.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#654

Post by ericd » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:36 AM UTC

mlloyd wrote: post #364

ericd wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe those two things aren't everyone's top concerns, especially if they're struggling with the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy, as many people in less prosperous parts of the country seem to be. But even if you're well fed and feel secure in your future economic prospects, not caring very much about racism and sexism doesn't make you racist or sexist. It seems to me that most Republicans just don't care about…

Or people need to understand that when you associate with bigots you'll be labeled as such and whatever granular point you're trying to make gets lost behind that larger point.

See, that's my point, someone doesn't have a job, or prospects, is desperate for some relief on that front, and you seem to be chastising them for not caring about the president's bigotry enough to vote for someone they're convinced won't help them economically. Do you see why they might not feel like their livelihood is a "granular point", but rather "a much larger point" than whatever you care about most?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#655

Post by Fins » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:39 AM UTC

rgossiaux wrote: post #527

dcow wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my perspective, it's the culture that develops around the "liberal politics" that is the issue. I don't think anyone is complaining about "getting heat for political views". I mean that's just politics. What I've experienced at various companies, though, is that the culture becomes infected with the politics to a point where it impacts the way companies operate and even individual employees' ability to perform t…

>I'm hesitant to share anecdotes so I'll keep them fuzzy, but a few things I've seen are along the lines of places removing a comedic joke item because it /might/ give a newcomer the impression that the place "normalizes fascism" (rationale was fear someone wouldn't understand it's a joke and thus let's err on the side of keeping the space sterile), and hiring/comp policies designed around explicitly not paying men m…

You mean the guy who did what Google wanted him to do -- wrote a reasonably thoughtful essay on a subject that Google had company-wide training on and requested feedback about; had his essay leaked to the outside world, received theats of physical violence (those people are still employed, I believe), and then had himself fired over something that wasn't even in his memo? That guy?

As for Google having a huge market cap, isn't it a a rather common liberal/left-wing trope that uch great wealth comes from being evil?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#656

Post by wpietri » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:47 AM UTC

drovo9 wrote: post #615

wpietri wrote: post #78

> they feel people there are resistant to different social values and political ideologies This is just bizarre to to me. I moved here from the Midwest, which I found stifling. There's a far greater variety of social values and political ideologies (not to mention backgrounds and interests) here than pretty much any place I've lived. The main hostility I see is to intolerance, but that's hardly surprising given SF's…

welcoming history and the paradox of tolerance The "paradox of tolerance" is only a paradox if you assume that society can determine objectively for its citizens what constitutes "tolerant" and "intolerant" behavior; such societies are by necessity totalitarian. In a free society, there is no paradox of tolerance; in free societies, individuals make their own choices and judgments about each other, and there are many…

I think objectivity is a red herring; there are useful subjectivities, good-enough heuristics. And I think your theoretical, "Gosh, what is tolerance anyway," waffle breaks down when you apply it to real examples.

Was early American society free for its time? Sure. Was it enormously intolerant? Yes. (Hint: black people were property because of their supposed inferiority. For similar reasons, white women were pretty close property themselves.) America has gotten somewhat better, but the Nadir [1], Jim Crow [2], redlining [3], white flight [4], and the Southern Strategy [5] make it clear that has only happened partially and with significant setbacks. The US right's recent hostility to GLBTQ rights and acceptance make it clear it's not just race.

Are some people going to argue that Nazis in favor of violent ethnic cleansing are good people and that one can't really say they're intolerant of the people they're willing to kill? Sure. Can we still come up with a useful-enough working definition of "tolerance" (and therefore the "paradox of tolerance") that will save lives? Definitely. Many countries have done this successfully, and suggesting they're totalitarian just doesn't fly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relatio...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#657

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:49 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #506

IntronExon wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the excuse I hear a lot from people who, upon closer inspection, simply see spouting their particular brand of extreme intolerance as something which should be utterly free of backlash. People like Peter Thiel, who seem to be some flavor of neo-nazi/white nationalist and don’t like that their noxious opinions have little remaining audience. You have every right to speak, and people have the same right to speak…

Sure, people have the right (and possibly a moral duty) to speak against those who they believe to be immoral advocates of the wrong belief. "Feeling alienated" because others don't agree with you is a reasonable result; I mean, this is a zero sum game, all viewpoints can't be most popular everywhere. But it crosses the line when it comes to actual discrimination in the workplace, which is bad no matter whether it's…

[deleted]

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#658

Post by wpietri » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:51 AM UTC

drovo9 wrote: post #611

wpietri wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, intolerance is a specific term of art here, not just anything lefties don't like. For example, look at the US right's decades-long pursuit of anti-GLBTQ policies. Gay people mostly just want to be left alone to live their lives. the US right wants to use the power of the state to discriminate against them. It went so far in California that Prop 8 specifically rewrote the constitution to strip the right of equal p…

For example, look at the US right's decades-long pursuit of anti-GLBTQ policies. Gay people mostly just want to be left alone to live their lives. Being left alone is all I ever wanted as a gay man. But the gay rights activists are demanding all sorts of positive rights and privileges from the government, and worse yet, they are trying to do it in my name.

This so poorly matches both my understanding of what they request and what my GLBTQ friends say on the topic that you're going to have to be much more specific if you want to make your case.

The biggest issues I've seen are just not getting discriminated against. For example, the biggest fight I've seen in my time in California was Prop 8, which was very clearly about equal protection under the law. The next-biggest was marriage equality, which is just removing needless heterosexual privilege from marriage law.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#659

Post by nonworkplceacnt » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 6:59 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #506

IntronExon wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the excuse I hear a lot from people who, upon closer inspection, simply see spouting their particular brand of extreme intolerance as something which should be utterly free of backlash. People like Peter Thiel, who seem to be some flavor of neo-nazi/white nationalist and don’t like that their noxious opinions have little remaining audience. You have every right to speak, and people have the same right to speak…

Sure, people have the right (and possibly a moral duty) to speak against those who they believe to be immoral advocates of the wrong belief. "Feeling alienated" because others don't agree with you is a reasonable result; I mean, this is a zero sum game, all viewpoints can't be most popular everywhere. But it crosses the line when it comes to actual discrimination in the workplace, which is bad no matter whether it's…

I wonder - how are these two things different:

It would be weird to feel offended, or more specifically, "discriminated" against, were you to discuss publicly, in the company of other co-workers, your specific actions in the bedroom or bathroom.

For example, I hope no one is arguing for ensuring "our free speech rights" to talk about the details of their bowl movements or bedroom proclivities in a sprint planning meeting.

> otherwise I might not be able to talk in our workplace about why I like my candidate and why I want to have the opposite policy for incompatible moral reasons, which seem immoral and evil to them.

Why do people expect a different response to, and treatment of, political opinions?

Even if what you would consider a "political opinion" is advertised, circulated or pushed by your employer, your coworkers, "general vibes" - why the expectation that any and all political opinions should be granted the utmost respect, neutrality and objectivity? And most specifically, why this expectation in the workplace? When has the workplace become a "safe space", where, if one political opinion is discussed, all must be allowed to?

Sexual orientation was deemed (ImNAL, my simple understanding) a protected class - in that, we (via our legal system) agreed discrimination against this class is illegal (like age, race).

Are you arguing for not only political affiliation, but political expression to be protected as well?

Should, say, an extremely conservatively run family business be allowed to deny employment to a candidate specifically because they have strong liberal views?

I personally think political opinions and affiliation are nowhere near as fundamentally universal as age and race. For one, opinions are a choice. Therefore, 100% yes, such a business would be well within its rights to deny the candidate employment.

Workplaces are dictatorships, not democracies. If part of that absolute command structure includes the discussion of only one side of a political opinion, it does not follow that all opinions should be given the opportunity to be heard (for fear that it _might_ discourage its existence and expression nonetheless!). I would even go so far as to say perhaps you are too eager to express your own opinions, and too quick to feel threatened by the sound of others. Since politics is an expression of values, are you not holding one set of values, while in the company of what seems to be scores of people who hold no such ones themselves?

Politics is an inherently divisive, generally un-or-misinformed and emotional topic. I have some political opinions not everyone, or even most, will agree with (find me an example of two people who share in common all political opinions!). If I have such an urge to also present those view points, I would then also rationally be prepared for the backlash. My opinions have not been censored, I can go to any street corner, website or pub to discuss any such opinion I might have.

My employment ramifications would be the same as discussing activities of the bedroom or bathroom in those environments; in taste, a private conversation of a sensitive topic. Loudly and publicly; a risk calculation incurred by my employer - one they are allowed to make with any prejudice they desire.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#660

Post by wpietri » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 7:09 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #445

wpietri wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, intolerance is a specific term of art here, not just anything lefties don't like. For example, look at the US right's decades-long pursuit of anti-GLBTQ policies. Gay people mostly just want to be left alone to live their lives. the US right wants to use the power of the state to discriminate against them. It went so far in California that Prop 8 specifically rewrote the constitution to strip the right of equal p…

You are right. My apologies if I implied this only happens on "the left". There's a lot of context in this thread so I didn't feel the need to caveat. However, "social lynching" is not an absurd term. While everyone has a right to express their opinion and face the consequences thereof, social lynching occurs when people mob together and demand, pressure, or otherwise effectively execute physical consequences for a u…

I still think this term is ridiculous.

You still haven't given any indication that you underand the weight of the term "lynching". If you'd like to, maybe start with this slim book, which I found sobering: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0933121180

The only example I can think of where someone lost their job due to a donation was Brendan Eich, whose political cause was changing the constitution to strip a civil right from LGBT people. You are worried about the effect on his family, but he was literally trying to harm hundreds of thousands of LGBT families, and the LGBT families at Mozilla were very reasonably afraid of more direct harm.) Why are you concerned about only one kind of family?

(And I'll note that if his career has been harmed, it's hard to measure. He's the CEO of a company with $42m in funding, which doesn't sound like death to me.)

Your taxonomy is also suspicious. The problem is not people having opinions; it's them acting upon them. And make no mistake, political speech is action. The whole point of it is to change society. That's why we protect it so fiercely under law: its enormous power to shape democracy for the better.

More than that, your dudgeon here is anti-freedom. If people don't want to work with Eich, who are you to tell them that they have to? He gets his freedom of speech; they get their freedom of association. If you don't like that, you get to exercise your rights to speech and association.

Of course, if you really wanted to pursue that, you'd have to end at-will employment. It would be an interesting world where nobody would be fired for a political opinion. But it would require absolutely massive government intervention in employment, so I doubt you'd find many conservative backers.