How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#651

Post by aub3bhat » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:32 AM UTC

odbol wrote: post #639

booleandilemma wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sorry, Uber doesn't get to resort to some kind of corporate vigilantism and "do whatever it can to continue operating". Uber can go through the proper legal channels to address the concerns it has.

Laws take years, even decades to change. We'd never have any progress if every technological advancement had to wait for the law to catch up and regulate it.

how dare you utter such impure thoughts on a forum named "Hacker News". Regulations is always for the greater good!!! /s

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#652

Post by odbol » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:33 AM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #448

lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber Keep in mind, this is only possible as long as there's an actual alternative to Uber. Once they, or any other multinational for that matter, manage to establish a monopoly you will be flat out of other options. Even worse: Once they are well aware of their monopoly they will abuse it in every imaginable way. Don't be evil.. at least until you are big enough. >It seems p…

> Once they manage to establish a monopoly you will be flat out of other options

Oh, you mean like the taxi companies? Regulated to the point of no competition?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#653

Post by uzoodoo » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:34 AM UTC

4ad wrote: post #491

zhengyi13 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of the Reddit shadow ban, myself.

You mean hacker news' shadow ban?

My accounts at home keep getting shadow-banned... was wondering why suddenly everyone stopped responding. Tried registering a new one but it didn't let me.

Wonder if this one will show up after I log in from home...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

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Post by wpietri » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:38 AM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #309

austenallred wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Obstruction of justice is a crime. So are lying to an FBI agent, destroying evidence, resisting arrest, evading arrest, falsifying business records, destruction of documents with intent to impede an investigation, and of course perjury.

I don't know that any of these apply here, but yes, actively avoiding accountability is often a crime on its own. And correctly so, I'd say. Creating fake accounting records as a hobby would be odd but not immoral. But keeping two sets of books in a real business has no purpose beyond enabling illegal activity.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#655

Post by raattgift » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #546

TeMPOraL wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like if nuking was the worst thing the US did fighting Japan. Have you heard about firebombing? That said, plenty of corporations abused and killed innocent people en masse. Some even had their own standing armies to occupy territory.

Yes, I am aware that tokyo (and dresden) firebombing was far worse by pretty much every sane metric than the nukes. Call me when a corporation racks up 100,000 people in a day, when not doing it as a contracting agreement for a government.

On one day: 4000 deaths, 4000 permanent disabilities, 40000 significant injuries, with a further ~10-20000 later deaths.

But hey, cheap Eveready batteries by avoiding burdensome regulations !

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bhopal_disaster

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#656

Post by wpietri » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #654

avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Obstruction of justice is a crime. So are lying to an FBI agent, destroying evidence, resisting arrest, evading arrest, falsifying business records, destruction of documents with intent to impede an investigation, and of course perjury. I don't know that any of these apply here, but yes, actively avoiding accountability is often a crime on its own. And correctly so, I'd say. Creating fake accounting records as a hobb…

Oh, and if you're wondering about the moral case, I think it's pretty clear. When we the people set out to do something together, deciding to evade our joint decisions and mechanisms for self-regulation is an antisocial, antidemocratic act.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#657

Post by dylz » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:56 AM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #32

Dangeranger wrote: post #4

Are there legal grounds here for a court decision against Uber based on this? I suppose the answer depends on the nation or state in which this tactic was deployed. This behavior doesn't surprise me based on their strategy of negotiation regarding regulation.

Some of the tactics could fall afoul of anti-discrimination laws - particularly, grabbing device numbers of cheap pre-paid phones could have an adverse impact on minorities. Thinking about it a bit more, the next-level approach is to make sting activity look like african-american activity, then grab members of the african american community who now cannot hail an uber and sue under anti-discrimination measures.

Unfortunately, this is standard risk and antifraud, not even just Greyball; many many services I know of outright blacklist/block prepaid carriers, prepaid or reloadable debit cards, etc.

Several places I know of also outright block specific banks and BINs for abuse.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

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Post by ransom1538 » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 5:00 AM UTC

This is clear cut conspiracy [1]. It's 5 years of federal time (no parole). I am sure once a federal agent arrives at the uber office for a few questions people will be pointing fingers & divulging information without lawyers. Brutal. Hilariously, the people that turned over the docs to the nytimes didn't realize they will also be indicted.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 [1]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

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Post by raattgift » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 5:02 AM UTC

ad_hominem wrote: post #606

azernik wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence "common norms and morality".

A: "I need a ride" B: "I will give you a ride for $10" A: "Okay!" I would say a government interfering in such a simple transaction is immoral and violates common norms. Traditional taxi cabs and the gov't regulations that propped them up is a textbook example of rent-seeking.

The government almost certainly creates and maintains the rights-of-way on which B will take you.

Revert to horses in countryside settings:

A to B: "I need a ride"

B to A: "I will take you on horseback for a penny!"

B to C: "I need to cross your field/forest/stream"

C to B: "That will be a quarter of a penny, and no refund if you cannot negotiate for permission to enter and cross the next property along the way"

[repeat]

In the history encompassing the legal tradition of where Uber's HQ is based, governments have been interfering with this (by road, trackway and holloway construction and maintenance) since before the Romans invaded Britain.

Indeed, formal regulation of taxi services appeared in England in 1635, with the Hackney Carriage Act setting up a legal framework, with further statutory and regulatory tools (including licensing, which imposed training and safety requirements on drivers and carriage owners, and which granted broad protections against rent-seeking by road owners, including public bodies) before the 1670s.

So the "interference" in the market you pine for has been going on for many centuries.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#660

Post by chickenfries » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 5:15 AM UTC

losteverything wrote: post #482

chickenfries wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not assume people are being genuine? Uber has done tons of things to piss people off. I think people in the HN bubble forget that the majority of the country has never been in a ride share. Talk to some blue collar people. Talk to some taxi drivers. Talk to drivers who left Uber. You might find that they aren't as sympathetic to Kalanick as people on HN are. HN in general has more sympathy for corporations and bi…

I'm genuinely curious. Where else is conversation worth reading daily?

I'm not sure I have good recommendations, I spend most of my time reading things on here since I quit reddit. My last sentence is tangential to the main point of my post, which is that Uber has earned all of it's scandals through their actions. This Greyball project is astounding, and it's no wonder that someone eventually leaked to the press about it.

The point I was making about internet comments is that comments on HN are particularly sympathetic to start ups, entrepreneurs and corporations (obviously).