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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

541–550 of 805 posts

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#541

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…

That and about 98% of the USA hasn't heard about any of these bad news stories nor do they care. If their rides start to take 30 minutes to arrive then people will start to care which is what matters. I think much of the rest is Silicon Valley echo chamber stuff.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#542
It is very interested how Uber is seen as extremely evil and the government chaps & taxi drivers are the good.

I'd say that what they are doing is "Rent Seeking"[1], which has extremely detrimental effects on the economy and that if some of the conversations between them were made public, they would end up in an even bigger mess.

My impressions come from the halting of the Uber service in Sofia, where the link between local authorities ans taxi companies was even more obvious than in Paris, Berlin and other cases.

What are your thoughs on that? It seems to me that Uber is in a lesser moral violation and hence the lesser evil.

Are there any mainstream medias which represent neo-libertarian or whatever it is called views and or at least try to be objective?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

P.S. Isn't this nearly morally/legally equivalent to using those speed gun detectors or police camera location applications?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#543
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

I'd rather go homeless than work on that.

Really?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

Western government is a democracy in name only. The US was designed to be so large that no individual can expect to cause a change in its function, even if they organize large protests, or send torrents of mail. You could run for office, but you wouldn't get in, especially not off a platform of "forget national security, let's protect privacy!". Even if you did get in, you still need to organize hundreds of others who also got in to agree with and work towards your goal. Even if the legislative branch implemented your plan, you then need to wait as the executive branch caught up. Note that the NSA/FBI doesn't always work within the law - they are perfectly willing to break a few laws to make their jobs easier. You would have to infiltrate these organization, and instill a new culture that followed your value system. This would entail firing hosts of the leadership, and probably a large quantity of their subordinates, who would still be used to the old mode. This process would, if you took the time to do it correctly, take many more years than you would have to do it.

The system is not only not designed to allow change easily, it is explicitly designed to make it as difficult as possible. The idea is that change shouldn't happen just because someone somewhere said they wanted something, and not enough people disagreed to stop it. Change should only happen when the vast majority of people have thought about it and agreed with it. This system is designed to prevent genocide or other forms of purposeful mass inequality. It is, however, extremely poor at giving an individual rights and freedoms. The assumption is that the individual should already have rights and freedoms, and all the government need do is not remove them. Barring some injunction with the state, an individual can then do whatever they choose.

Capitalism can, when implemented properly (inb4 no true scotsman), act as a true democracy. It can allow each individual person the choice to do what that person chooses, independent of other peoples disagreement - even if the vast majority thinks the decision idiotic. Under our governments form of "democracy", what should an individual do if the majority of people don't want privacy, if those people are against privacy? There is nothing they can do! Whereas, even if everyone else in the world was a hardline supporter of a company like Uber, any individual could make the choice not to use them.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#545
There was a time when Lyft employees would call Uber cars, wait 2 minutes, then cancel the ride. This left riders driving around to pick up phantom rides, unable to make any money servicing legit customers.

If you're questioning whether this system should exist, it seems totally reasonable to build. The question is how aggressively do you use it to protect the company, and from which threats.

(And yes, Uber did that to Lyft too.)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK. No corporation has nuked two cities full of civilians.

Like if nuking was the worst thing the US did fighting Japan. Have you heard about firebombing? That said, plenty of corporations abused and killed innocent people en masse. Some even had their own standing armies to occupy territory.

Yes, I am aware that tokyo (and dresden) firebombing was far worse by pretty much every sane metric than the nukes.

Call me when a corporation racks up 100,000 people in a day, when not doing it as a contracting agreement for a government.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#547
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. It reminds me of the VW emissions cheating case: "Hey, have it detect whether the test cycle is running and emit a signal if true." 'Um... why would the system need to…

Agreed, and also the article states that multiple current and former employees reported this information.

But NYTimes might be mistaken in its reporing?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber Keep in mind, this is only possible as long as there's an actual alternative to Uber. Once they, or any other multinational for that matter, manage to establish a monopoly you will be flat out of other options. Even worse: Once they are well aware of their monopoly they will abuse it in every imaginable way. Don't be evil.. at least until you are big enough. >It seems p…

No, it's not. If you dislike "government" so much you are always free to move to a place where there's less or even none of it. Case in point: Somalia has barely any government to speak of, pretty much no regulations and very high rates of firearms ownership, it's basically "libertarian utopia". Strangely enough, barely any libertarians would want to live there?

Oh, a Somalia expert. I was wondering when one of these people would pop up in this discussion. I'm sure I can learn a lot from you actually - I don't know much about the place at all.

Can I ask you why you think Somalia doesn't have any government to speak of? Somalia has had a central government since 2007 - but I'm sure you already knew that.

I'm also curious about your opinion of the Barre Administration and the (presumably) high standard of living the government provided during that time.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would argue that when you give a subset of a population an institutionalized monopoly on the user of force, you're always going to get bad government eventually. Why?

The balance of power allows government officials to control those outside of government.

Those outside of government have control over government officials as well. Besides it doesn't really answer the question.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the millions of Americans in prison. How did that work out for them?

That example is supposed to inspire us to respect the law more ? You need more practice at this rhetoric thing...

I didn't say you had to respect it. Unjust laws should be changed. There is a process for that.

It is fundamentally unfair to have one segment of society (tech workers) have a different set of rules than the rest. Do you disagree?

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