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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#641

Post by 15155 »

jcranmer wrote: post #370
giantg2 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if it's established as unconstitutional, couldn't you file a criminal complaint of official oppression against the members of whatever government approved the cameras since they are levying unconstitutional fines?

As an individual and not the government, you can't file a criminal action. You could file a civil action for violation of constitutional rights, but under Roberts, SCOTUS has basically been ripping out all of the mechanisms that would let you file such suits.

> you can't file a criminal action.

Georgia and a handful of other states absolutely allow this.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#642

Post by Frieren »

15155 wrote: post #639
Frieren wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction. Income proportional fines solve the problem. The fine should be a deterrent, but not create crippling debt. That is impossible without taking into account the income of the infractor.

Sounds like a great reason to keep all of your income in a corporation in a state with favorable privacy laws and then have very little on paper.

Tax evasion always looks like a good idea until a non-corrupt goverment gets elected and the tax office goes after you.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#643

Post by db48x »

elliottkember wrote: post #509
hrimfaxi wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there no distinction between standing and moving violations?

Yes, there is a distinction. But it’s irrelevant in this case because you can be ticketed for either. The speeding ticket goes to the registered owner and there are no demerit points as there is no proof of driver identity.

No, there is a difference. Parking tickets are civil infractions that can only result in a fine (or in some cases a tow, but let’s not get lost in the weeds). Running a red light, on the other hand, is a moving violation committed by the _driver_ specifically, not the owner of the vehicle. Moving violations can result in criminal penalties. Sending a ticket to the owner of the vehicle and then making them defend themselves is unconstitutional.

Look, I get it. You guys are all European and think it’s perfectly normal to have to defend yourself when the government assumes that you are guilty. But here in the USA we have protections against that. The government _must_ assume that you are innocent until they can _prove_ that you are guilty. That includes not assuming that the owner of the vehicle was the one driving it, no matter how common that scenario is.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#644

Post by mikrl »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #223
mikrl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In North America, from what I understand, the issue is that the authorities need to verify your identity in order to ticket you and traffic cameras don’t do that whereas a police officer does. I agree the automated systems are impartial, but they cannot ID you without it becoming super invasive. In Europe and places with more omnipresent cameras, the laws are such that they can ticket you without needing to ID. The c…

What does "North America" have to do with Florida? I'm in Canada and they issue you a fine without any ID. It goes straight to the registered car owner. Simple as. The issue is that currently in FL there are points / demerits issued for violations, and these can cause the loss of a license, increases to insurance, etc. This is not a problem if an officer can ID you directly.

Florida is in North America is it not? With laws influenced by the history and cultural constraints of the continent?

We have fairly divergent laws at this point but ultimately we both inherited the majority of our legal system from colonial tuned English common law, not forgetting French civil law in places. So I would expect some level of commonalities, especially given that I barely see speed cameras in S. Ontario yet I’ve been pulled over before.

IIRC in both England and Connecticut your passenger can be drinking a road beer in the car, but definitely not here in Ontario.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#645

Post by db48x »

pixl97 wrote: post #215
0x3f wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that could possibly be true. The same flow has to be achieved either way, and lights will always have some margin of inefficiency in switching. Seems lights will always be strictly worse than roundabouts in this sense. There are also solutions for large vehicles where the center is raised but not impassible.

You over estimate the intelligence of the average American. I've lived in a few cities with a number of roundabouts and while I love them, the number of stupid people that panic and.. -stop in the roundabout -stop before the roundabout and let their brain buffer for 30 seconds. -somehow go the wrong way in the roundabout -fail to yield to traffic in the roundabout Is way too damn high. It makes traversing one a high…

Many areas in the USA actually have lots of roundabouts, and people there have figured them out just fine.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#646

Post by hamdingers »

infecto wrote: post #371
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

Maybe it exists but I wish there was more heavy hitting articles/research on this. I feel like an absolute grumpy old man but it feels drastically different compared to my younger years driving and I am only 40. These days I rarely see police on the side of the road ticketing and when I do it’s usually on a highway. Never do I see people getting pulled over in city streets. My thesis has been an uptick on BS calls. S…

Does this NYT article satisfy? https://archive.is/6BzFc

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#647

Post by 15155 »

Frieren wrote: post #642
15155 wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a great reason to keep all of your income in a corporation in a state with favorable privacy laws and then have very little on paper.

Tax evasion always looks like a good idea until a non-corrupt goverment gets elected and the tax office goes after you.

This isn't legally "tax evasion", it's well-established law: corporations have some degree of personhood, and as a corporate officer, I am allowed to disburse payments to those in my employ as I deem fit. Individual states have very little authority to look into foreign (other state) corporations.

Good luck contending with stare decisis and all of the implied interstate commerce issues to try and prevent this.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#648

Post by db48x »

0x3f wrote: post #578
unselect5917 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference is Americans aren't yet used to them because they're uncommon. You fix that by making them common. It's not like there's a genetic difference in Europe that makes them capable of roundabouts and Americans not.

Roundabouts were introduced in the UK back when car penetration was low and every learner for decades has been indoctrinated into how to use them. It's the education piece that's the problem. People don't intuitively understand roundabouts and you can't magically send that knowledge to millions of existing drivers. In some sense you have to start sometime, but there's going to be pushback from the accidents and injur…

No, this is just making excuses for not building them. Once you start using them in an area even the drivers that have never used them before will figure out how they work. It’s not rocket science.

> there's going to be pushback from the accidents and injuries that will certainly happen in the interim.

In areas that have actually built lots of roundabouts the accident and injury rate dropped immediately. There was no interim period with higher accident rates.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#649

Post by jms703 »

pants2 wrote: post #545
vrosas wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daycare fines parents $5 _per minute_ of lateness.

Three hundred dollars per hour? How is that acceptable? Certainly there's some sort of maximum or grace period?

It sounds like a great policy. Good news is that you can choose to be on time or pay the penalty or choose another provider who hasn't decided to implement this...yet.

I'm shocked by your question. I honestly would like to hear why you think this should not be acceptable. Why should they continue working overtime and cut into their own personal/family time because of the parent's failure?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#650

Post by cucumber3732842 »

danesparza wrote: post #592
vkou wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative? No rules at all? Immediate death penalty for anyone who runs a red in front of a cop? Seizing and auctioning off the car? Deporting the offender to Texas? Something else? Revoke their license?

Wow dude. Calm down. "What's the alternative?". Maybe a more thoughtful law. Perhaps a scaled fine system? (The second fine costs 2x the first fine, the third fine costs 3x the first fine, etc) Maybe after 10 fines you get a point on your license? Maybe the state has to prove it was you driving so they setup more (but discreet) cameras at intersections?

I say we set the delay to red and green to be 0 state wide and use the cameras to fine people who don't start moving within a short amount of time after they get green.

Betcha red light running drops like a rock after that.

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