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Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

nytimes.com

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Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#641

Post by tomhow »

cadamsdotcom wrote: post #597
neilv wrote: post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

@neliv I’d like to encourage you to do a few searches and maybe ask an LLM for that ELI5 - and include what you learned!

I think it's fine to ask these kinds of questions, in the hope that the HN audience may include individuals with particular insights. A response like this has the same ring to it as posting a link to LMGTFY, which is disallowed here.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#642

Post by ethbr1 »

anigbrowl wrote: post #620
ethbr1 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Trump's behavior makes sense when you realize his dealmaking strategy is bullying: 1. Exert maximun possible pressure 2. Strike the best deal possible Reasons only matter in the sense of selecting initial targets. Once into dealmaking, it's anything and everything thrown at an opponent. You can see this in terms of what stops him: equal counterpressure (China) or consequences (US stocks and treasuries being d…

The problem is that deals made under duress have little lasting value. The bullied party feels little moral compunction to uphold the terms a moment longer than necessary, plus they will naturally be skeptical of the bullying party's commitment to do so in the future.

Oh, it's absolutely asinine. Which is why international geopolitics and real estate differ.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#643

Post by croes »

bko wrote: post #636
kristopolous wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, this is how we will be competitive - defunding universities, deporting the best and brightest, dismantling education, and cutting off trade. I mean seriously, if a malicious saboteur was running things, what would the differences be?

Harvard doesn't have higher academic standards for foreign students. So I don't think foreign students are any "better or brighter" than their American counterparts. So if you can find equally qualified American students on the margin shouldn't you do so? I think an American university that benefits greatly from American taxpayers and institutions should primarily benefit American students. If you're picking truly ex…

But foreign students pay foreign money which helps against the deficit.

On top of that many students stay in the US afterwards means a brain plus for the US and a loss their home country. These kind of braun drain is a big advantage for the US they know destroy.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#644

Post by acdha »

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #505
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people associated with the University are pretty happy about it getting smacked down. Shameless, wrong, and overtly illegal discrimination on the basis of race, sex, and creed, suppression of free speech, even the compelling of speech have all been de rigeur for Harvard for the past decade. I just wish they would use a scalpel rather than a sledge hammer.

[flagged]

It’s a short but sweeping claim without a citation in sight. That’s a recipe for a flame war but it probably won’t lead to a useful discussion since anyone who would respond is simply guessing at what you’re even talking about or whether you actually arrived at that position through research rather than simple partisan loyalty.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#645

Post by firesteelrain »

dmvdoug wrote: post #630
firesteelrain wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not know yet what Harvard did and did not respond to. All we have is their word. If they didn’t provide what was required after DHS demanded what was legally required to be provided then DHS is on solid legal ground. I can’t really defend not providing something that isn’t called out as part of the law though

No, we gave the SEVIS revocation letter demanding a handful of categories of information, one of which is “protest activity.” And they are already required under the statute to provide one category of information requested: “any disciplinary action taken by the institution against the alien as a result of the alien’s being convicted of a crime or, in the case of a participant in a designated exchange visitor program,…

My point is we don’t know if they actually provided all the info that is statutorily required and/or the government is saying within those statutory rules you still didn’t provide it so by law it’s revoked (for now). We only have statements from both sides.

Seeing as it’s private most likely won’t see it via FOIA

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#646

Post by dgfitz »

dmvdoug wrote: post #630
firesteelrain wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not know yet what Harvard did and did not respond to. All we have is their word. If they didn’t provide what was required after DHS demanded what was legally required to be provided then DHS is on solid legal ground. I can’t really defend not providing something that isn’t called out as part of the law though

No, we gave the SEVIS revocation letter demanding a handful of categories of information, one of which is “protest activity.” And they are already required under the statute to provide one category of information requested: “any disciplinary action taken by the institution against the alien as a result of the alien’s being convicted of a crime or, in the case of a participant in a designated exchange visitor program,…

Rights don’t exist if you’re not a citizen. Isn’t that the whole crux of the debate? Glossing over that part, and as a former lawyer you should know better, means everything.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#647

Post by rs186 »

sorenjan wrote: post #328
paxys wrote: post #69

Harvard as an institution is older than the USA. It will survive 4 years of a lunatic's presidency.

Trump is not the problem, he's a symptom. Don't forget he got reelected, together with a republican congress who does everything he tells them to do.

This. If Trump is suddenly gone for whatever reason, the succeeding President is going to continue with the MAGA/Project 2025 agenda. Trump may be dumb and stupid, but imagine a US President who is young, energetic and speaks coherently that continues with the same agenda. (Hint: look at DeSantis and what happened in Florida.)

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#648

Post by goatlover »

HEmanZ wrote: post #306
sva_ wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He will already have serves his second (and therefore last) term, or what do you mean?

I find it unlikely but… Much of my extended family would absolutely join a civil war on side Trump to get him into a permanent position of power if given the opportunity. Some of them are in the military. So it’s not unreasonable by world history standards that he could get a subset of the military on his side in a coup scenario. I think people in large urban centers or outside of the US don’t realize how much certai…

I hope they realize how profoundly un-American it would be to fight a civil war to install a king/dictator in power.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#649

Post by fluidcruft »

klipt wrote: post #616
ceejayoz wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A judge has already blocked the move. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/judge-blocks-tr... > A federal judge in California has blocked the Trump administration from terminating the legal statuses of international students at universities across the U.S.

The house republicans have passed a bill that in effect lets Trump override the courts: https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-hidden-provision-in-t...

Presumably you mean it would if it were passed into law. The House passes all sorts of bullshit that dies in the Senate.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#650

Post by anigbrowl »

Spivak wrote: post #295
woggy wrote: post #266

I don't see the US surviving the Trump administration.

We basically get two chances if you want to follow the normal procedure. Swing congress during the midterms and lock him up for the remainder of his term and or elect a democrat in four years who will tear up the stack of executive orders and make the rounds apologizing to everyone.

I mean both of those options (minus the locking up) were tried last time. Even if Democrats were to win elections as described, another round of apologies and saying nice things about institutionalism is not going to cut. I felt pretty sure Trump had a good chance of being re-elected from 2022 onward, Democrats simply didn't want to believe that a large part of the electorate are assholes or that they would need to change up their policy/electoral/comms game. Some of them still don't want to believe it.
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