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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#641

Post by s1artibartfast »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #602
s1artibartfast wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answering for myself, I don't see a movement that is strictly for due process, law, and order. Each side is so encumbered with baggage that I don't want to support them. One is breaking law and processes in egregious ways. The other thinks that law should not apply to illegal immigrants and even legal deportations are a due process violation.

>The other thinks that law should not apply to illegal immigrants and even legal deportations are a due process violation. Where? Who? You're just making this up.

Im entirely honest. There are many in this thread suggesting amnesty or non-enforcement. If I dont want to take part in an open boarder or anti-enforcement protest, where do I go?

What do you think? Should all illegal immigrants be deported?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#642

Post by southernplaces7 »

yuliyp wrote: post #126
southernplaces7 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. Whether you like it or not, it has indeed been happening for a long time, and under multiple administrations from either party. If you're interested in the tragedy of it all enough to care, then go look these cases up instead of first accusing someone of lying because they might be smearing…

I guess the question is how frequent it's been. A big part of Trumpism is taking sketchy practices that used to be exceptional and turning them into standard operating procedure, and then claiming "oh look others did this before" I mean, look at Hillary Clinton's emails, extorting of lawfirms, big tech, etc, his ignoring of court orders, etc. All are things that you can look at and say "he's not the first to do this"…

I actually mentioned this same worry in a previous comment on this post thread, and I don't think that i'm missing the point about Trump doing certain things in way more aggressive and possibly new ways. It's something that should be cause for lots of worry.

However, as I explained above, the deportations of citizens are nothing new and though it's good that they now receive attention, they should be viewed from the wider context of decades of federal overreach and authoritarian practices by certain agencies.

my other comment similar to what you mention https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43803664

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#643

Post by remarkEon »

wat10000 wrote: post #625
remarkEon wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they have "immunity", it's about whether the US Government has jurisdiction over them, meaning they can conscript them in time of war, collect taxes and so on, and that there isn't another foreign power that can do or already does this. Howard, who introduced the Amendment, said this[1]: >This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that ever…

Thanks. Dude couldn’t even make his own statements unambiguous. And he can’t seem to make up his mind about whether the “subject to the jurisdiction” clause refers to the child or the parents.

One of the disadvantages of the overly verbose style common at the time.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#644

Post by JackYoustra »

remarkEon wrote: post #619
JackYoustra wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding both the economic research and my argument. No one is claiming wages are "the only thing in economics where positive supply shocks don't matter." The research shows that labor markets aren't simple supply-demand curves because of complementary productivity effects and gains from specialization, selection effects, and, of course, demand generated by the immigrants. If you have gen…

Okay. Which other things don't see effects from positive supply shocks? You're just restating my premise about time horizons. The pie grows, with time, if a bunch of other things happen in the right order. Wages haven't grown in two decades in the UK, your original example. So, how are you defining short and medium term? Three decades?

man idk, maybe it was the long conservative rule after the crash? Maybe it was the long austerity? Maybe it was the huge mass of natives that voted to crash out of an agreement with a bloc that handles over 80% of their trade?

More seriously...

- for US: The newest NBER IV estimates put the wage effect of all 2000-19 US immigration at +2 % for non-college natives. Show me a UK study of similar vintage that finds anything near –2 %.

- for UK: UK real wages tracked productivity one-for-one after 2008; BoE and NIESR pin that on capital deepening, Brexit and austerity. Not on immigration, which the MAC finds moved wages by _at most_ –1% (aggregate, not yearly!) and the final report was ~0.1%, basically a null finding.

- We've already been through lump of labor, so I don't know why you've been banging on equilibrium.

And to finally address your time horizons: Short-run? Mariel-style shocks still show null effects. Medium-run? 2009-20 UK data flips positive. Long-run? Productivity wins. Pick your horizon. Immigration is at worst a rounding error next to TFP, which is positively associated with migration.

Happy to dive deeper, but at this point the burden of proof is on anyone claiming large negative wage effects. The best evidence, across multiple methods and countries, just isn’t there.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#645

Post by Chris2048 »

llm_nerd wrote: post #577
Chris2048 wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when she stated that "no one is above the law" in talking about that case My reading is that the judge lied to the FBI in order to help the subject escape, AFAIK this is a felony (obstruction?) and anyone else would be charged - so why isn't it equally applicable to a judge? I think people are assuming the judge has some form of power that she doesn't. Not going to discuss Bondi or Trump, on a GBA basis.

>the judge lied to the FBI These were ICE "agents" with an administrative warrant. Nor did she "lie", she refused them entry to an operating courtroom -- which she was 100% right to do. So nothing you said is accurate. There is a 100% chance she will be completely exonerated, but of course this clown administration -- full of in-the-open criminals of the worst kind -- doesn't care about that, they just care about int…

Apologies, It was the FBI that arrested her, but may not have been to whom she lied; This is described as:

"Obstructing or impeding a proceeding before a department or agency of the US"

-- https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/d62bd73e-a370-40e4-...

My understanding is that even in the case of an ICE agent, can also be a felony:

https://www.birdsall-law.com/legal-implications-of-interferi...

The agents are described by the FBI agents as "Agents from [DHS], [ICE ERO]" without scare-quotes - are you implying that they weren't legitimate agents? That said, FBI and CBP agents are also described as being present, so the distinction between ICE/FBI, and a judicial/administrative warrant seem unimportant.

> Nor did she "lie", she refused them entry to an operating courtroom

She appeared to co-operate (leading them away to talk to the Chief judge), while actually helping the subject evade arrest (returning and actually instructing them how to escape).

The first part, the deception, is what makes the lie rather than a mere upfront refusal.

> which she was 100% right to do

obstruct the agents? In which case they are right to arrest her.. I'm not sure what your angle here is.

> nothing you said is accurate.

Seems to me your own corrections are just as inaccurate. The above should clarify.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#646

Post by krosaen »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #357
krosaen wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what chatgpt said is incorrect, I would love to know. Are you not interested in the legal details of these cases so we know what can be fought under current law and not? The cruelty of the actions should be judged harshly, and in the longer run we need to reform immigration law so they are not possible, but knowing what can currently be fought legally matters to me.

>If what chatgpt said is incorrect, I would love to know. "Everyone else do my work for me, and by default I'm right!!!!" You cannot be serious. Bullshit-asymmetry principle on grand display right here.

The point wasn't chatgpt, it was the question I was introducing that hadn't been raised yet. I don't view the output of chatGPT to be likely bullshit, nowadays it surprises me if it is wrong about a factual question like the one I asked it. From the rest of the discussion, its answer appears consistent with what others have found.

I also get if asking the question seems obtuse in the first place. I am interested in exactly what is legal and not so it is clear what can be fought and how. But overall I am very angry about what is happening - apologies if it seemed like I was trying to justify what is happening.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#647

Post by otde »

samlinnfer wrote: post #148
otde wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a) bad? Have you considered d) pass a different law? Why are you pretending the law is some immutable thing that we always need to follow, regardless of the situations an unjust law might place someone in if followed?

Instead of processing immigration applications fairly for everyone, we just should let people who break the rules get away with it? Having deportation as an actual threat, reduces the amount of people who attempt to break the rules since they know there are consequences.

Why does the consequence have to be deportation? Can we imagine a form of deterrence that doesn’t necessitate the cruelty of familial separation? Do we at least agree that what is happening right now, to this family and to others, is deeply unjust?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#648

Post by AustinDev »

JackYoustra wrote: post #640
AustinDev wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Saying "there is no such thing as a perfect process" when discussing the unconstitutional deportation of LITERAL American citizens on an overnight, including a child with cancer deprived of medication, isn't a reasonable position. It's an attempt to normalize extreme rights violations. As I've mentioned in other comments non-judicial removals (no immigration hearing) are in fact very common accounting for nearly 75%…

If you think it's wrong then it certainly does not 'has to happen if you want to live in a sovereign nation under the rule of law' If you can't criticize the overall objective (large-scale depopulation of America because so-called undesirables don't meet arbitrary legal criteria) then at least criticize the approach - don't call it an ugly but necessary business. Call it a completely unnecessary violation of civil ri…

My argument was that remigration is never going to be pretty however it is necessary to enforce your immigration laws as a nation to be fully sovereign. Deporting citizens was never part of that argument. It's obviously wrong, it's been happening at a small scale for decades. If that number changes and we see even a 2-3x growth in the number Americans mistakenly deported, I'll be the first in line to call for regime change. It's unacceptable just like the talk of sending US Citizens to foreign prisons, it's just insane.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#649

Post by lazyeye »

archagon wrote: post #567
lazyeye wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> in order to sway voter demographics in their favour [citation needed]

Try commonsense. Politicians trying to improve their electoral prospects is not fringe conspiracy theory.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#650

Post by lazyeye »

MyOutfitIsVague wrote: post #562
lazyeye wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There is no evidence of illegals voting in any significant number at all. GOP voter suppression had a far bigger effect than a minuscule number of illegals trying to vote for whatever reason.

[flagged]
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