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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#641

Post by Jem »

seanc722 wrote: post #175
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Erm.. Why does it have to be a low cut dress. I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest because their chests are hot from all the hair?

I can tell you have absolutely no idea how hard it is to find flattering clothes for larger breasts.

Re: "Lighten up"

#642

Post by ErrantX »

jasonlotito wrote: post #639
olliesaunders wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amy shouldn’t be blaming herself for being the victim of sexist behavior. You could have tried to convince her of that. Even though you didn’t, you weren’t an idiot here. Aside from her internal negative reaction, the situation was actually improved.

From the sound of it, she's not. She's blaming ErrantX. What I gather is, she didn't feel offended, and rather, by him doing what he did, make her feel as if others saw her as being "offended." I think that is much more likely the case. The question is, should ErrantX be offended for other people? If he's offended, he should speak up. But being offended for other people implies they are also offended. And, if they ar…

We discussed it in depth after, because we are close friends (which helped).

It wasn't so much exposing her as being offended; she was put out by the treatment, but had gotten used to it over time. To the extent it didn't bother her any more (the more I tell this anecdote, the more awful it seems really!). When I raised it as an issue, publicly, it brought all of that back.

In addition it made her feel that everyone saw her as being targeted, and unable to cope with it (partly because we were so close, she imagined they saw her getting me to stand up for her where she could not). Whereas before she could think of it as a private upset between her and "Chris".

I never even thought of it in that context; "Chris" was doing something inappropriate, I felt that calling him on it would be a good way to resolve it for everyone.

What I missed is that it could affect "Amy" in unexpected ways. A private conversation with "Chris" would probably have been better...

So, yes, she blamed me. And herself. But only really in the heat of the moment - after the fact she was grateful, just wished I'd done it another way.

One thing she did say was that her initial reaction was that I was just as bad (sexist) because it looked like I saw her as unable to stand up for herself (which wasn't what my thought process was, I should add!). But after she realised that actually she hadn't stood up for herself on this issue. That blurs the line so much on terms like sexism.

So I learned; human social interaction is blooming complicated!

Re: "Lighten up"

#643

Post by stdbrouw »

adrianparsons wrote: post #487
stdbrouw wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a kernel of truth to this, but it's also somewhat disingenuous. At work, as a male, I can't wear anything too casual because it's unprofessional or might mark me as a hipster, but I also can't suit up every day unless I want to be seen as a corporate drone. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and hip. Every single day.

Woah, not the same at all. If you wear a low cut top in a room full of guys and are seen by some as a sexual object, it's taken on a new dimension. I appreciate the subtleties of male dress (I deal with the same issues you raised), but the pressure isn't the same.

Of course, my point was mainly that "having to go through something every single day" can be a huge burden or a slight inconvenience, and I'd be much more interested to hear from women where on that spectrum picking work attire falls for them rather than assuming it reduces their quality of life to zero based on a dramatized quote. Again, not trying to discount your friend's experience and I sure as hell don't think men have exactly the same issue, it's just low on context.

Re: "Lighten up"

#644

Post by datashaman »

Confusion wrote: post #573
drhayes9 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Yes, Virginia, this is sexist. Holy hell, is it sexist. You are characterizing a woman's behavior in terms of how it makes you, as a man, feel. There are many reasons that a human might dress a particular way, but by characterizing it as a gender-based, "she wore that to make me do this" kind of transaction you have incor…

I'm a heterosexual man and I wear certain jeans because I like to show off my butt. That's fine. But am I doing it because I want to attract "female attention"? Not exactly. This turns on a subtle point, but it's very important: I wore them for me, not for anyone else. Feeling attractive is not the same as receiving attention. I don't want to be honked at, felt up, leered at, or even commented on. But I do want to lo…

Yah, well. He could also be doing it for attention from men. For a uber-politically correct thread, there's an awful lot of heterosexism going on here. #JustSaying

Re: "Lighten up"

#645

Post by Jem »

OneBytePerGreen wrote: post #290

Dunno. I'm a woman, and I think that blog poster needs to lighten up. I've worked in IT for years - usually as the only woman on the team - and I've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. Maybe slight prejudices in the beginning when the guys think I'm not as good as them, but I enjoy proving them wrong. There is banter, and sometimes it's not 100% HR approved, but I've never felt that it was…

I'd love to wear lightweight cotton dress shirts. Unfortunately, trying to get a pair of 36G breasts into a shirt cut for my size is an exercise in futility. The results border on pornographic - gaping buttons, bulges etc. I have a few choices:

a) buy a shirt 3 sizes bigger and look like a clown

b) spend a fortune on clothing designed specifically for the 'well endowed' woman OR

c) wear something I own that makes me comfortable - which may or may not be low cut but is bugger all to do with anyone else (and really, most of the time is not designed to be low cut but ends up being so because the material shifts)

Do any of these situations warrant me being commented on, criticised or jeered at? Should I suffer these comments for something that isn't my fault?

(And don't even get me started on how being a breastfeeding mum impacts on both the choices above AND the range and depth of comments I receive.)

I'm glad that you've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. That doesn't mean it should be ignored when it does happen. That doesn't mean it is somehow this woman's fault and that she needs to "lighten up".

Re: "Lighten up"

#646

Post by mhartl »

mhartl wrote: post #569
MartinCron wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors,…

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people. The result is a choice between potential opprobrium and insufferable blandness. This is how it happens: http://android.eonline.com/article.ftl?category=Latest+News&... I pretty sure DeNiro didn't burn any crosses.

I'm

Re: "Lighten up"

#647

Post by scott_s »

mkramlich wrote: post #545
freshhawk wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the conversation here has been so much more enlightened.

I've generally found that when it comes to matters of gender and sexuality, the more "enlightened" one claims to be, the far less actual experience in life, with real people, one actually has. The college/twenty-something years in particular are wonderful for many things, and universities are wonderful for many things, but one thing they're bad at is giving you a realistic view of the world as it actually is, and peo…

The next time I have to sit through an HR-and-Legal mandated harassment course for work, and I catch myself thinking "Is anyone actually this clueless to think saying such things is okay?" I'll make sure to remind myself, yes, some people are.

Re: "Lighten up"

#648

Post by Jem »

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

As a woman, a woman in tech AND a mother to a little girl: thank YOU.

Thank you for supporting your wife, thank you for teaching your daughter that she doesn't have to take this crap, and thank you for not being part of the problem in the first place.

Re: "Lighten up"

#649

Post by m-photonic »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

>I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard

Without endorsing any specific views on female vs male promiscuity, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, men and women are different from each other, and male and female promiscuity are different phenomena.

Re: "Lighten up"

#650

Post by krschultz »

LaGrange wrote: post #80
huckfinnaafb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters. The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I…

Comments like these are nauseatingly pompous. He never says anything about getting violent. You are projecting your own views on the matter.

Maybe his response would be to call the interviewer's boss and describe the actions. Maybe his response would be to write a blog post and do all the SEO in the world to make sure it shows up #1 every time someone Googles the company in question. You are assuming that the reaction he wants to contain is punching the interviewer in the face - when he never says anything to that effect at all. There are plenty of possible actions that are not violent and are not morally equivalent to the interviewer but are still plenty regrettable.

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