The Framework Laptop • Hacker News Board

Re: The Framework Laptop

#641

Post by oh-4-fucks-sake » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

boogies wrote: post #407

throwaway894345 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan... ) are b…

Agree that efficient development (regardless of IDE/editor) is done best using primarily keyboard.

Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost always be superior to their on-board counterparts.

But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant if we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads don't receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the best of us.

Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists even bothered with even owning a laptop if they rarely/ever intend to use the most major distinguishing features that separate them from desktops in the first place?

But even if you don't agree with any of that, why shouldn't we still demand a damn-good version of a highly ubiquitous tool, even if we don't personally use it that often? (Especially since Apple has proven that it's possible.) On HN (and the rest of the dev community) are perhaps the most demanding critics of anything technology. "Server starts up 8% slower!--dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more memory--are you kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm in tears!" "The new theme is highly disruptive to my workflow--OH THE HUMANITY."

I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should be! That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality; our users care about quality. We should care about what our users care about. We have the voices and power to advocate for good products for all that use technology. The trackpad will be a major way people interact with computers for a long time to come and I'm not prepared to hand-wave away the mediocre.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#642

Post by nrp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #196

I can't imagine the stress of launching a "sustainable" tech product like this, knowing every aspect of the product and business will be ultra-scrutinized.

I had a 7 year long trial run for this by making consumer VR a thing ;)

Re: The Framework Laptop

#643

Post by nrp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #176

A bit like the comments about incongruous items in the recent Apple lab video, I find the presence of a Pocket Operator on the video demonstrating ease of assembly rather amusing. They already ticked the expensive camera box, but for proper hipster bingo success, you would also need: some kind of branded grid paper notebook, a metal mechanical draughting pencil, a teapot with loose leaf tea, audiophile headphones and…

You joke, but my Grado headphones and Swanson Speed Square were only not in the video because the shipment didn't arrive at the shoot in time.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#644

Post by hamburglar » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

gburdell3 wrote: post #538

nkrisc wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

It has to be software. I have a ThinkPad that I recently installed macOS on (not advocating hackintosh, but it's a fun project nonetheless) and the trackpad feels every bit as good as a real Mac. Smooth scrolling, smooth gesture recognition, everything just feels good. The hardware is capable of processing the gestures, but the non-Apple software just does a terrible job of making it feel good to use.

It’s definitely not just software. If you connect an Apple Magic Trackpad to a Linux machine running X, it works way, way better than the garbage that’s built into most PC laptops.

Also note that Lenovo itself has a huge variation in trackpad quality. My relatively new thinkpad (thinkpad-branded but I think the model number was yoga 360) from work has a trackpad that is just barely usable. My personal yoga c740 has a trackpad that is actually pretty nice and gets close to MBP quality when it comes to movement/accuracy (it does still lack gestures and good right-click support though, and that is likely a software issue).

I really hope these guys pick good trackpads. I can grudgingly live with a stunted feature set (gestures etc) for now because I know X makes it difficult or impossible to get right, but I absolutely cannot abide a trackpad that feels shitty and inaccurate just for moving the mouse around.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#645

Post by nrp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

tkinom wrote: post #523

enchiridion wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable? Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder types, it really should support AMD.

Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible. They definitively should design it to support motherboard swapping. Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32 cores ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.

We've designed the Framework Laptop for end-user motherboard swaps from CPU platform to CPU platform. We minimized the cost of that move by keeping the memory, storage, and WiFi socketed.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#646

Post by sudosteph » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

pedalpete wrote: post #632

sudosteph wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 to this, except I would like a plastic alternative to the aluminum in the case as well. While it's commendable that framework is picking those materials to environmentally conscious - I have had such terrible past experiences with "aluminum" body laptops triggering eczema outbreaks[1] - that I avoid metal cases as a rule now. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291384767_Allergy_r... TLDR: many metallic c…

Wouldn't a case or skin be a better solution to this than a plastic housing?

I always worry about ventilation with cases, though that may unwarranted depending on the particular case / skin. I was cheap (and not sure if the laptop was my root issue at the time), so I ended up putting duct tape over the area my wrists touched, and that helped a lot. It looked pretty silly though.

That said, when I had the option to get a laptop where I wouldn't have to think about it at all (plastic cased thinkpad), I jumped for it. Maybe I've just developed a deep-seated, emotional resentment for metal bodied laptops in general after spending so long dealing with itchy/oozy hands, wrists and forearms. Also all the doctors who just prescribed steroid creams and blamed stress...

Re: The Framework Laptop

#647

Post by gohbgl » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

I like the idea, but I will 100% not buy it for these reasons (most important first): 1. Bad keyboard layout: Small arrow keys, lack of dedicated home/end and page up/down. 2. Screen is too small. I need at least 15.6 inch. 3. Replaceable ports are a gimmick. They waste space. Just put the ports there directly. 4. Intel CPU.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#648

Post by Judgmentality » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #480

Alupis wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone? I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black bezels and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same, but some colored options would be wonderful - like the HP Spectre x360's with blue and black options, etc. Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo upgrades for newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better - getting to choose t…

Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage. That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple keeping that tightly under their thumbs. Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors might be popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have to sell at a discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be surprised if Framework offered that…

> Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage.

Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of CNC machines milling aluminum laptop cases.

Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the rest of the industry, as they have the money and the scale to do whatever the fuck they want.

https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-...

Re: The Framework Laptop

#649

Post by nrp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #398

Who actually makes the boards for this? I want to believe here, but I need to know a little more about the supply chain before I’ll pick one up.

One of the big Taipei-based notebook manufacturers who builds machines for other popular brands. We'll be giving deeper transparency into our supply chain once we get full sign-off from the folks we work with there.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#650

Post by rchaud » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #53

SloopJon wrote: post #33

One of the repair challenges is access to old parts. The drain hose on our three year-old washer sprung a leak. When I called a repair man, he at first said that Samsung doesn't make that part anymore. Fortunately, he was mistaken, but if that's something that happens for a simple hose, imagine trying to replace the "high-end headphone amp" expansion card on this laptop five years from now. Even if I'm not too excite…

On the other hand in the laptop space I've never had problems with part availability. With brands like Dell or Lenovo there are plenty of new and used parts available on ebay or your trusted reseller, and official service handbooks are easy to download. The real value-add of the framework laptop is imho the upgrade path: you can swap in newer components without replacing nearly everything. Usually that's limited to j…

Is that true for the premium laptops? I worked at my school's help desk and yes, Dell parts and service manuals were plentiful, but usually for bulky Inspiron and Latitude budget laptops. The ones with ugly screens, wacky trackpads and replaceable batteries.

It's been a while since I was in that world, but Dell makes some mighty nice looking machinery these days, but it doesn't look particularly repairable.