My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#641

Post by tssva » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

bborud wrote: post #465

tssva wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as actual freedom. You exercising your "freedom" almost always means imposing upon someone else's. In your example wouldn't someone having to provide a service to a LGBTQ person even though it is against their religious beliefs be a violation of their freedom of religion just as much as refusing to provide them service would be a violation of the LGBTQ person's freedom? "Freedom" is used a lot…

Not all exercise of freedoms comes at someone else's expense.

Can you give an example to support this statement?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#642

Post by Meph504 » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

thrownaway954 wrote: post #617

Meph504 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair or wise to tell people this, do you any data to support this claim? I don't know any career track companies that don't do background checks, there are too many services now that make them insanely easy to do, that it's basically uploading a resume and/or filling out the form and you can get results back the same day.

yes i do cause i've worked in both the government and private sectors. all government jobs required a background check and some even security clearance. quite a few private did also, but most of them don't cause they don't want to spend the money on them or down right don't care about your past cause they have a past themselves. i will say that just because you have a criminal record doesn't mean that you are automat…

Firstly, I'm not saying not to try, certainly you should, hard to get a job without applying.

But I do not think its a fair expectation to say "most of them don't cause they don't want to spend the money on them or down right don't care about your past."

I've never seen anything that what would lead me to believe that "most" is accurate, and at best "some" would be closer to accurate.

Basic background checks aren't expensive, and take almost no time to complete, goodhire is an example where even small companies can get a background check done for $30-$50 per applicant.

Again, I'm not saying don't apply, but I don't think its a good idea to tell people "most don't care" because they are going to likely face an uphill battle, and that many people are going to hold a criminal history against them.

I do agree that being upfront about it, is the best choice, and if I was to make a recommendation, it would be to seek expungement where possible, and stack your training, certifications, and references as much as possible to attempt to overcome the issue.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#643

Post by poulsbohemian » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

shadowprofile77 wrote: post #584

poulsbohemian wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in consulting, it was part of our regular contact language that we had verified backgrounds and that we wouldn't place a felon on site with a client. A surprising number of clients even outside banking, finance, government, etc made a point of enforcing this language, even conducting their own background checks. Freelancing was the approach I saw some people do successfully, but there were lots of projects…

This is just puritanical, judgemental idiocy at its most pointlessly discriminatory. Even for felony offenses it often veers into the same territory but flatly refusing to hire people for fucking misdemeanors with absolutely no relevance to most of the work involved? What a closed, almost hatefully punitive mentality some employers have. I can't put myself into another's shoes or context of needs, but if I ran a firm…

I don't really disagree with you - but try arguing that with every lawyer in every Fortune 1000 company.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#644

Post by 3np » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

BlueGh0st wrote: post #472

anon55555 wrote: post #69

Hey, posting anonymously here since this hits close to home; as I'm also a felon. I learned to program _after_ all my legal troubles started, and my sentence wasn't _nearly_ as long as this (6 months, drug crime). I 100% honestly feel like tech saved my life. My first job immediately gave me hope that I'm not defined by my past. Went from working in a factory making $7/hr (about 10 yrs ago), to now grossing well over…

How? I read so many felon success stories but I'm a non-violent felon and I can't even get an entry-level interview in IT. I'm multiskilled with a huge focus on security but despite the demand, I've had so much trouble. In fact, in one very sad case, I showed up to my first day of work as a sys admin and was walked out after 2 hours because the HR department neglected to go over my application and see the felony chec…

Smaller companies (5-20 employees) will most likely be a lot more understanding.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#645

Post by infamouscow » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #229

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

Proof of criminal law in the US is notoriously low. Police perjury especially concerning marginalized groups is routine business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-polic...

Have you ever been on a jury?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#646

Post by eeZah7Ux » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

tssva wrote: post #640

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In your example wouldn't ... be a violation of their freedom of religion Not at all, that's not what freedom of religion is. I can practice a Mayan or Inca religion by myself - that's freedom of religion - but I cannot allow it to affect other people's life e.g. by organizing human sacrifices.

How is an individual refusing to provide a service which is readily available from others significantly impacting other people's life? Also not being able to practice ritual sacrifice if it is part of your faith is a violation of your religious freedom. We as society have made the decision that the right to life is a greater right than your right to freely practice your religion but it is still a violation of your ri…

> How is an individual refusing to provide a service which is readily available from others significantly impacting other people's life?

That's a strawman.

> Also not being able to practice ritual sacrifice if it is part of your faith is a violation of your religious freedom.

No, it's not. The ritual is not illegal in its religious aspect. Harming the other person is illegal.

By the same logic I could claim that running someone over is freedom of movement. It's not.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#647

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #308

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that [1] seems to refer to federal sentencing, and almost all criminal law in the U.S. is state law. [1] is a small subset of what's going on, and it can't be used to generalize.

Election polls are a tiny subset of the general public, but they do offer very powerful insights into wider trends. Is there any reason to believe that Federal judges are more racially biased compared to State judges? I'd be shocked if State judges as a group are more color-blind than Federal judges.

Election polls are designed to do exactly that, whereas this sample isn't anything even approaching a random subset that could be used for inference about the whole population.

It may be the case that in state courtrooms judges are the same, worse, or better, but making that inference on the basis of federal-level data is probably unjustified.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#648

Post by astura » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 7:46 PM UTC

yreg wrote: post #479

BlueGh0st wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? I read so many felon success stories but I'm a non-violent felon and I can't even get an entry-level interview in IT. I'm multiskilled with a huge focus on security but despite the demand, I've had so much trouble. In fact, in one very sad case, I showed up to my first day of work as a sys admin and was walked out after 2 hours because the HR department neglected to go over my application and see the felony chec…

In what situations do US employers/clients ask about criminal history? Can't you freelance or start as a contractor?

Most companies (and every company I've ever worked for) do a background check on hire (the offer is contingent on passing the background check).

If you know you're not going to pass the background check then you're probably better off working at a startup.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#649

Post by RobertKerans » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #627

RobertKerans wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a jaw-droppingly horrific system you're imagining. Amongst other things you've effectively insulted rich criminals from any repercussions, and basically given them a slave underclass (please, no snarky comments about current justice system). Do you genuinely think this a good idea?

Our current legal system has evolved over many hundreds of years. I merely describe a set of initial conditions and a few possible early developments. The space of things it might evolve into seems pretty wide. I do suspect some of those things would be good. That said, in the meantime: There have existed societies in which the penalty for murder was to pay a fine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild Also, this do…

We know how this goes, because forms of it are what the current system evolved into; there are obvious descendents of what you say in the legal system. But that doesn't mean applying it literally, as with your "early developments", wouldn't have awful consequences.

> ...If they have enough money to pay the fines when murdering tens of people...

It's not about "murdering tens of people". It's killing someone whilst drunk driving, or murdering someone in an argument. These situations clearly still happen in the current system. But with what you're saying codifies that, if someonene is rich, as long as their crime is not against someone else rich, they can generally avoid any repercussions. Blood libel is still a thing, can literally see it in action in countries which have legal systems that allow it.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#650

Post by fakedang » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #537

poulsbohemian wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(payment was 6 months late once) This never gets enough visibility among freelancers / contractors / consultants - it can be really hard to get paid and for smaller amounts of money it often would take too much in legal fees to actually get paid.

Don’t work until payment is made? Offer a discount for early payment? Charge interest on late payments?

You can't exactly not work until payment is made, simply because the field is too crowded. So in the starting of a project, you desperately go to a bidding war against the competition where you either compromise on your time or your money or something else of yours. Whether you get paid or not becomes a backseat priority. Offering a discount for early payment is one sort of those things, and let's be honest, most clients value the optionality of not paying at all over paying a discount. Charging an interest on late payments needs to be explicitly mentioned during the bidding process, and that will draw the client away in an already crowded field.