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What I Heard from Trump Supporters

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#641

Post by mikeash »

mLuby wrote: post #634
mikeash wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm bigoted and racist but I'm not going to admit to that." This one always gets me. We're told, over and over again, that these people are tired of being called whatever-ist and that we should start being nice to them if we want their support. Well, I'm sorry, but if you weren't so freakin' racist, we wouldn't keep pointing it out. If you don't want to be called sexist and ignorant, stop electing people who try to…

Is it appropriate to work with racists to end racism?

I don't really know how that would work. Can you elaborate?

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#642

Post by rpearl »

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #409
rpearl wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He supported a guy publicly! ...You can't just talk about the abstract notion of "supporting" "a guy". A specific thing happened, not the generalized notion of "publicly supporting a candidate". Is he not subject to criticism for his political positions? Where exactly is the line? How should someone be challenged to change their positions?

> Where exactly is the line? How should someone be challenged to change their positions? The line is the one that divides their politics from the rest of their life. You challenge their ideas, you don't harass them or try to get them fired.

All actions are political, to at least some extent. So that's not a very clear line to draw. Furthermore, you talk about "challenging someone's ideas" without apparently any reference to the the rest of their life, which is... a rather nonsensical. You further give no means by which to do so, and rule out one of the more important ways of influencing someone--social stigma.

Certainly in this case we're talking about a financial company (YC)'s input and direction. Does someone who supports policies like the current occupant of the white house belong in a position of influence there? They are being paid in this capacity for their ideas, and therefore challenging their ideas means challenging that relationship.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#643

Post by CM30 »

dlp211 wrote: post #633
DashRattlesnake wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech is not an entitlement to a forum, it is a right that guarantees that the government will not interfere with your speech, but even that has some limitations. That's a pretty narrow and legalistic idea that's often deployed to excuse some pretty terrible behavior by private parties. Yes, it's accurate if you're talking legalistically about First Amendment free speech rights, but there's a more general pri…

Do those protesters not have autonomy to choose what they hear or whom may speak at their organization? Are they not allowed to say that an idea has no purpose except to poison and thus should not be uttered? You may not agree with the protesters, but they too have rights and autonomy.

There's nothing wrong with them protesting. Or complaining to the university.

But when a group has asked Milo to speak, then you have no rights to physically block someone from speaking or try and shut down their event by force. Feels like even when not violent, some of these protests were less complaining about the event and more trying to stop supporters getting to it. And I don't think that's right.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#644

Post by Bartweiss »

admyral wrote: post #608
Bartweiss wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest answer I know is that it's a problem with selective (and unproductive) enforcement. Lots of people immigrate illegally, and many of them stay at length, work hard, and build lives. The government pretty explicitly turns a blind eye to their presence. Then we change leaders, and suddenly responsible residents of 30 years are kicked out to a country they haven't lived in since childhood. Meanwhile, a great…

It seems like America doesn't have an appetite for long term, sensible policies. We pass common sense legislation, fail to ever adjust them based on how they work in practice or when new information comes to light. Then as public outcry reaches its peak, a politician will come along to scrap the entire thing in favor of starting anew or propose some poorly conceived, overly broad solution to the problem. America is g…

I think this is deeply, alarmingly true.

The easiest example I see is the long list of policies which were assessed via some known value like inflation, but never pegged to it. As a result, they're grounds for new fights every couple of years when it comes time to re-assess them. I'm not even thinking about minimum wage here (which still sees fights over its existence) but inside-baseball funding for various executive branch positions and agencies. Similarly, the alarming number of laws with hard cutoffs (on salary, or employee count, or whatever) that create weird anti-growth, anti-work incentives.

I think it was in a recent discussion of cost explosion (e.g. in healthcare or infrastructure) that someone pointed out that the US isn't over- or under-regulated compared to similar nations; it's just worse regulated. A disturbing amount could be gained by going through the Federal Code and just fixing the bits that every expert agrees are stupid.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#645

Post by rrauenza »

rrauenza wrote: post #461
saeranv wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing. Can you elaborate on #1. I never really understood the level of hatred Hillary received. To me she seemed like any other politician.

Off the top of my head ... whitewater, healthcare during Clinton presidency (people didn't think the first lady should have such a large role in public policy), Hillary demonizing Bill's female accusers, "landing under sniper fire" in Bosnia, Vince Foster's death, Benghazi deaths, Benghazi root cause (particularly the initial narrative that it was due to the youtube video). Also the sense that it was "her turn" -- a…

Another aspect I forgot is that the Clinton's have often been unnecessarily secretive. For example, they weren't forthcoming about her pneumonia. Some thought that even the email server was driven by a desire to be secretive, even when not necessary.

This behavior tends to make people suspicious -- but on the other hand, people were also out to discredit them.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/26/cnn-host-wikileaks-showed-...

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#646

Post by spinlock »

dguaraglia wrote: post #364
lsy wrote: post #48

> "You need to give us an opportunity to admit we may have been wrong without saying we’re bad people. I am already thinking I made a mistake, but I feel ostracized from my community." Folks seem to stay stuck in bad positions because to change their mind would require them to come to terms with, and take responsibility for, having done something morally reprehensible. Ultimately though, it's immature and manipulativ…

To be fair to them, it is hard to acknowledge you've fucked up and learn from your mistake if people mock you relentlessly about it. The easiest human reaction is to deny or retreat, not admit failure, ask for forgiveness and move on. That's why extending an olive branch and offering a safe space to discuss the issues they might be facing is the right approach (yeah, I know, it's ironic that we are even having this c…

It doesn't work. Look at Obama's infamous, "cling to guns and religion." Do you know what point he was making? He was trying to explain to those of us with good jobs on the coast that middle america had been passed over and ignored by previous administrations.

Why would any politician ever extend an olive branch again when it is just used as a -- very effective -- weapon against them?

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#647

Post by spinlock »

mikeash wrote: post #351
Eridrus wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I vote according to my pet wedge issue (usually guns or abortion), sorry. As much as I agree with the left on both these issues... I would rather give up on these as politically untenable rather than lose every other issue to Republicans. I don't know if this would just lead to other wedge issues ad infinitum, and I don't know how you would get that idea through a democratic primary (though there are christian demo…

I do think that the Democrats should give up on gun control. I generally agree with their stance on it, but it's just not that important. I see so many reasonable people who agree with Democrats on nearly everything, but love their guns. Some of them hold their noses and vote D. Many of them refuse to, because they really love their guns, even though they lean that way on almost everything else. I completely disagree…

democrats have given up on gun control. you'll notice Obama didn't really grab any of them

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#648

Post by rrauenza »

Arizhel wrote: post #505
mikeash wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative talk radio, and other similar media, have spent decades vilifying her. According to them, she has helped her husband prey on women, has had people killed to cover up crimes, is trying to push for a takeover of the US by the United Nations, and much, much more. Not much of this is connected to reality, but that just doesn't matter.

The part about her helping her husband prey on women has at least some truth to it. There's no shortage of women over the decades who have accused Bill Clinton of sexual assault; I think it's rather silly to claim that Billy is completely innocent. So just as with any rapist, a woman who insists on staying married to such a man and backing him up in public can be seen as "enabling" him. Honestly, I don't think all th…

I don't think it is so much staying married as it is actively enabling him by working to discredit his accusers. She was an active participant in formulating the strategies to discredit them:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435941/hillary-clinton...

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#649

Post by ZeroGravitas »

wwweston wrote: post #293
uxp100 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it would help you (honestly, not trying to sound condescending) to reevaluate what acting like Nazis would look like.

Any specific ideas? I'd make several assumptions: 1) It's possible for humans to act like Nazis 2) It's possible for a democratic state to gradually become not only a host to Nazis, but become a host that's run by Nazis 3) At an early stage, many people can't distinguish between Nazis as a positive or benign force and Nazis as, well, Nazis. So, perhaps I could use some tips. What would acting like Nazis look like?

Well, they'd promise to make the country great again for starters.

They'd crush the unions to undermine their political opponents.

They'd align themselves with big business.

They'd tell "big lies" and believe that if they repeat them enough then people would believe them.

They'd think a minority religion was plotting their downfall and start making plans to deport them all.

They'd build up the army, while not spending enough on problems at home.

Against all economic advice they'd stop trading with others, viewing it as weakness, and try to become entirely self-sufficient.

So watch out for that kind of thing.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#650

Post by meat_fist »

austenallred wrote: post #539
meat_fist wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was simply to illustrate that "I'd feel more comfortable talking about my views in the Deep Red" is a statement only a White (probably) Male would say.

Perhaps, but I honestly don't believe that's true. It feels like politics has become something beyond politics in San Francisco. It's not "people have different ways of viewing things, and boy do I think you're wrong," it's "if you think that _____ or voted for _____ you are my enemy."

I think you'd be surprised at how non-white males are treated in the Deep Red, is again my point.
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