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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing education with test scores. The ability to solve hard problems in artificial test conditions is a useful proxy for having learned what is being tested. But only if the test itself is irrelevant. If your future depends on test scores, most people start focusing on what is being tested over what they are actually supposed to learn. All measurements are proxies. They never measure the thing they are su…

I think you’re drawing too much of a distinction here. Education can be just learning for the test. What you’re being tested on can be the entirety of what you need to know. It’s working extremely well for all of Asia. There’s no reason we can’t take away something from that.

Education is about building and maintaining a successful society. People have different opinions on how to define success.

Learning for the test is just a pointless excercise. If some part of education has no goals beyond that, it should be abolished as a waste of people's time and money.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#632
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And SAT as high school math exam itself I think is way too easy. They should design another test which can clearly distinguish top 1% or even 0.1%.from others

Yes, the scores at the top are way too bunched. A perfect score should indicate generational genius, not the 100th smartest kid your year in California.

There's about 500k kids in California each year. The 100th smartest is undoubtedly smarter than you or me.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Within the wider historical scope In what situations would you attribute effects to concrete, near-term causes instead or abstract, historical ones? In particular, why do you attribute academic success in some areas to historical racism instead of (presumably) modern poverty? In other words, given a cohort of poor kids and not poor kids, which outcomes of each group would you assign to historical racism and why? In…

Wrong premise. Near-term and historical causes are intertwined, inexorably-linked. Both cohorts are the result of historical racism. Hence, >Even if you're in the group that's being discriminated against, and succeeding despite that. I would expect the continued, sustained, and unburdened efforts to address and undo the effects of the policies and behaviors that make up what we know to be and have been systemic racis…

If understand you correctly, your answer to my question would be "never", that is, you would always attribute some blame to historical causes. Okay.

I am left with more questions, however. To paraphrase your final paragraph, you expect that efforts to undo the effects of past racism—those effects which we collectively call systemic racism(?)—is necessary to snip that past racism from the causal chain to present ills. But I'm left wondering if this language of systemic racism is even particularly useful in describing the situation.

That is, it seems the manifestation of this framing is to address these downstream effects (poverty, etc.), none of which are inherently racial, but affect educational outcomes. But it seems to me that framing the problem nonracially and focusing solely on the proximal causes of educational issues has the same (or better!) manifestations as the racial framing.

In short, I feel the systemic racism framing is unproductive, because in a prudent implementation it merely adds discussion of distant causes, while identifying the same social issues to address. In an imprudent implementation, it would not only cloud the field with historical discussion, but distract from important proximal issues which don't fit the historical frame, while at the same time alienating people who feel excluded or infantilized or condescended upon based on their immutable characteristics, which is scarcely outweighed by a possible ethnic rallying effect which could boost participation.

I think I need to provide a concrete hypothetical to tidy up. Consider a cohort of struggling students in Virginia, say, old coal town. The sociologist correctly identifies historical racism as a factor in some of the students' issues. So they... what? Acknowledge it? What for? They begin their real work addressing (somehow, idk) the homework environments kids have, their encouragement to succeed, the parents' support, school supplies, whatever. And race comes into the calculations exactly... never. I imagine it would be very disturbing if it did. "We're gonna help the black kids first because Jim Crow happened and that means they need it more." Well... maybe! Why make the approximation? Just focus on the proximal causes and get a precise prescription, no need for rounding.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#634
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A senior in highschool two or three years behind should not need extra-remedial classes for grades 1-8 maths during their first year at college, and especially not 600+ of them at once.

“High school” is two words.

When one swipes on a phone instead of typing, one may often make such an error without noticing.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#635
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

professors who don't/can't cover their curriculum also get in trouble. if i had to dedicate half of my classes to reteaching things the students are required to know before taking my class, i would not cover what i am supposed to, which then has a knock-on effect to the classes that my class is a prereq for. whenever i have had a larger-than-normal percent of my students failing, i am provided an opportunity to expla…

When we are put into a catch-22 situation, we should not expect sympathy from the ones who created the catch-22 situation.

Especially when “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." – Upton Sinclair

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, moral is to make student loans subject to regular bankrupcy. Student should be also able to get refound, if university misrepresents or lies about their job prospects! Universities are business as any other!

At that point you don't have a loan, you have a subsidy. That's OK though, many countries do have that.

Those countries are usually quite strict about who they will subsidize though. Not a bad thing IMO.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#637
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... Maybe. From a customer point of view, they are paying for education. If they aren't getting education that's a problem. From a future employer point of view, they are looking for credentials. But the future employer isn't paying for it. Do we just admit that the purpose of school is to provide credentials, and that's what the students are actually paying for?

Framing it as a transaction is part of the problem IMHO. We have a collective interest that the majority of the population gets the best education possible. Turning universities into credential stores leads to all the negative side effects we're dealing with - pay to play schemes, dubious credential mills, rich families bribing universities, and so on.

You do still actually need the credential process though, in order to demonstrate that a person has in fact received that education.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from the same situation. I speak from experience: social mobility in public school is the exception. I would have done just fine without AP classes at all, as I am sure you would have. It's the kids who need help that benefit from school. AP classes exist to pad the resumes of rich kids and justify their being propelled into academic situations that should rightfully belong to others. Prove me wrong

So because you weren’t personally benefitted as much as others no one should benefit from them. One of my AP classes taught us how to spot logical fallacies. Seems to have benefitted me well enough.

No, I believe this caste system should be abolished because I can personally attest to how much it benefits people and how irrationally/inconsistently it is applied to us. We must have good education for all

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the entire problem in a nutshell. You cannot reject more than one or two students in a year or the school will reject you.

In part this is a consequence of blank slate ideology, which presupposes that all students are equally capable of identical outcomes and that individual student failures are always / usually systemic failures in disguise. This is a silly perspective, but the blank slate folks really got their tendrils in just about anywhere. In reality, some people are simply bad at math. More education will help, but they will alway…

Eh, I don’t know. We’re talking about high school math proficiency here. The upper 80% of students should be capable of passing that, in my estimation. Regardless of differences in capability among that 80% (which I acknowledge!)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#640
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in my wife’s family grew up poor and many still are. My wife lived in a converted barn for part of her childhood. Regardless, the data is the data! Only 10% of parents on SNAP work full time.

Data without context is not useful. Data (alone) = Noise Data + Context = Information Experimentation + Error = Experience Information + Experience = Knowledge Knowledge + Humility = Wisdom

What do you call the injection of ideological excuses into data?
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