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Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

reuters.com

631–640 of 1001 posts

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#631

How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine? We have to wake up to the world where USA no longer cares about ideals like liberal democracy or allies, but is a warmongering corporatist autocracy.

"We have to wake up to the world where USA no longer cares about , but is a "

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#632
For everyone defending these actions on the basis of Maduro's own corruption and the desires of Venezuelans, I would encourage you to research the history of American intervention and regime change in Latin America. It is impossible to anticipate the second and third order effects of this change, and how it will be absorbed in the local politics. We are witnessing the return of American military intervention in Latin American, nothing more and nothing less.

To everyone proclaiming that we should turn to Venezuelans to assess these actions, how dare you assert that Americans have no autonomy in the actions of their own government. It is tremendously unfortunate that congress has forfeited all decision making authority to the executive branch, but as our democracy was intended this would amount to an act of war, which would require authorization by congress.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#633

It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. That's not how these things work. This is like the first stone of an avalanche. It could stop here, or it could roll on for quite a while. It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is. Remember the 'Arab spring' and what came after.

But in the end of the day, Arab spring worked just fine everywhere? In every single country where pro-Russian dictators were in power, they fell (Iran is not pro-Russian, just a potent enemy by itself, and is not Arab for that matter). Except Libya where they fell partially, with country being effectively split in halves. But this is already a big deal - there isn't a single pro-Russian regime now in the entire Arab world.

Why do you think it won't work like that with Venezuela?

PS: I realised that i made a mistake, so-called Palestine is absolutely pro-Russian, the entire ethnic group is created by Russians out of thin air in 1967, but it's a separate case and they did not participate in Arab Spring anyway.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#634

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Regardless of your opinion on Maduro, you can still acknowledge that the head of a sovereign state being captured in an unannounced/unnamed military operation by a superpower is wrong from a principled standpoint, and that it’s destabilising a country with 30+ million people if not the entire region.

> Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I hate this statement with a passion.

Let's ignore the politics of the current situation for a while and look at the first principles of right and wrong.

1) When somebody knowingly and intentionally hurts another person without a valid reason, that's wrong.

2) Now the aggressor is in the wrong and requires punishment (there are multiple purposes to punishment: taking away any advantage gained by the offense, further disadvantaging aggressors, compensation for the victim, retribution, deterrence, etc.).

3) A punishment is just if it's proportional to the offense but only those with sufficient certainty about the extent of the offense, about the offender's identify and his guilt can carry it out. Usually, in western style societies, courts serve this purpose but courts are a legal concept, justice is a moral concept. Morally, the punishment can be carried out by anyone who satisfies the criteria, there's nothing to put one person above another morally.

Legality has multiple tiers: tier 1 is individuals, tier 2 is states. States are a tier 2 institution imposed on tier 1. There is no tier 3 court-like institution which can be imposed on tier 2 entities.[0] Does that mean wrongs by tier 2 entities should go unpunished? No. They often do but there's no moral principles saying that it has to be that way, let along that it should be.

4) Punishment by its nature is the act of intentionally and knowingly hurting another person. But it's not wrong because unlike in point 1), it has a valid reason.

*What some people consider the second wrong is not actually a wrong.*

[0]: You could think of international organizations but they don't have a monopoly on violence above state level and therefore no actual mechanism for enforcement.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#635

It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. That's not how these things work. This is like the first stone of an avalanche. It could stop here, or it could roll on for quite a while. It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is. Remember the 'Arab spring' and what came after.

Increased nuclear proliferation is a one of those possible paths.

Trump has done a great deal already to incentivize nuclear proliferation by destroying confidence that the US will be a reliable defensive ally.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#636

It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. That's not how these things work. This is like the first stone of an avalanche. It could stop here, or it could roll on for quite a while. It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is. Remember the 'Arab spring' and what came after.

Of course assuming that this is a book that was opened today and not many years ago, is the tell tale sign where this argument comes from.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#637
post #623

Can somebody please explain how was he able to do that without Congress approval?

Easy: he’s the Emperor of America. The Republican-controlled Supreme Court said that laws don’t apply to him and the Republican-controlled Congress disbanded itself. Are you honestly surprised that he’s just doing whatever he wants?

Based on the speech he just staggered through he genuinely believes he’s emperor of the west. “American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again.”

Wonder who we will we bomb tonight. Mexico? El Salvador? New York?

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#639
post #600

A lot of Venezuelans are happy about it. Maduro is not good for Venezuela. The US should not be the decider of who stays in power on another country. The president should not have the power to apprehend a countries president IN THEIR COUNTRY without a process thats more than just "I really want it". The US is giving another clear message that it does not care about global order, just global control. We're back in the…

"We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition"

And then a few seconds later: "US oil companies will go into Venezuela"

Never the US has been so honest around so many lies in the same speech.

I am still curious about the whole side bar about Washington being now safest and free of crime.

Re: Trump says Venezuela’s Maduro captured after strikes

#640
post #499

"Venezuela has ~2.7× as much proved oil as the UAE (303 / 111 ≈ 2.73)." Pretty incredible

As expected: "Trump now turns now to oil. He claims the oil business in Venezuela has been a 'bust', and that large US companies are going to go into the country to fix the infrastructure and "start making money for the country"."
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